Thread: Ken Schwartz honing sprays?

I progress through beginners quickly so was anxious to get the groups opinion here. Found this video of Dr. Matt called the Secret to Creating the Perfect Straight Razor Edge, using honing sprays from Ken Schwartz at 1 mic, 0.5 mic, 0.1 mic and finishing with 0.05 mic. And he backs up his data with microscopic pictures of blades. Anyone tried taking honing to this degree? Opinions please.

Just watched the video in question and I will say his edges are polished to a high degree. One thing that I question is the white 'frosty' looking edge. The very edge of the edge. When I hone and set bevel, a frosty edge is an indication that the bevel is not set. Then at each step up the stones as the edge gets more refined the frost reappears as you wear down the ridges from the previous grit. You have to continue again until the frost goes away. It looks as though at this micron level he is not really getting the edge much thinner, just more refined. I am not saying that is necessarily a bad thing. Too thin and you make a weak edge prone to needing honing more often. He even states that his edges are best not stropped on poly, they are too hard on the edges, which makes sense.
It certainly intrigues me, since I am thinking of stepping up my honing. I already get great shaves using a Norton 1,4,8 then an Edlis and a Swaty Barbers hones.

I'd say his bevels are polished to a high degree but I can't comment on his edges. Didn't even see many edge pics in 14mins worth of video.
I think he's missing the point.
First of all there's no such thing as the edge of the edge . There is the bevel & there is the edge.
The secret to the perfect edge is in creating a good bevel, not the final polishing of said bevel.

If you can't strop it on canvas or poly then the edge is too fragile & not necessarily able to shave better than a more durable edge.
Not all steel will survive a perfect cosmetic polish as it inevitably becomes thin.
Play with it & have some fun but be sure there is a law of diminishing returns at work. Less is more is not just a clever saying.

I have a veho 400x scope and with the scope light on full there will be scratches on the bevel. If you look for them you will present the view that shows them with the correct light and viewing angle. If you don't want to see scratches, lower the light or further manipulate the viewing angle. Are the scratches there if you don't see them in a particular angle? Yes. A clean bevel at 10x from a trained eye is sufficient IMO.

I think the guy in the vid explains some things well, but as pointed above the white line on the edge is an issue.
Some people make honing a full branch of science. It is not that complicated and one does not need a million sprays and extremely tight progression of grits to get a great edge. The whole process is based on good motor skills , muscle memory and good observation skill. All those combined allow for even proper strokes, the right pressure, and proper assessment of the edge progress.

If you decide to go for honing sprays, look around you should be able to find cheaper prices than what Ken and his vendor will offer you.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

First of all there's no such thing as the edge of the edge . There is the bevel & there is the edge.

I believe Knife guys call the convexity near the apex the "edge of the edge" There is always a transition between the native bevel angle and the apex although with honed razors it will be too small to see with an optical microscope.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

If you can't strop it on canvas or poly then the edge is too fragile & not necessarily able to shave better than a more durable edge.
Not all steel will survive a perfect cosmetic polish as it inevitably becomes thin.
Play with it & have some fun but be sure there is a law of diminishing returns at work. Less is more is not just a clever saying.

The convexity introduced by pastes is what takes a "too thin" edge to a "strong enough" edge. It shouldn't require 4 steps to achieve this, IMO.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Some people make honing a full branch of science.

True, but that is how some of us learn and solve problems. Experimenting with different approaches to honing is what keeps this hobby interesting to us.
Personally, I apply the scientific method to almost everything from honing to cooking ribs on my BGE.

I use Ken's 0.1 CBN on leather to "clean-up" the foil left by 0.25 micron diamond stropping. I have experimented with the nanocloth, and it is a great polisher, but I have never observed an increase in keenness using it. In my experience, Matt's progression is excessive, but if he has found something that works, good on him. My preference is to take the edge to 16k shapton or 20k gokumyo and then slightly convex the apex with 0.25 micron diamond on leather.

Originally Posted by fuzzychops

I believe Knife guys call the convexity near the apex the "edge of the edge"

no they do not call it that, the edge is the edge, the shape is reffered toas V grind or convex depending on the shape, never heard of the "edge of the edge"

There is always a transition between the native bevel angle and the apex although with honed razors it will be too small to see with an optical microscope.

yes there is it but it is not the edge of the edge, it is natural convexing. As a matter of fact if you have the right hone for a particular razor (not at all common) you can shave right off the hone no stropping needed.

The convexity introduced by pastes is what takes a "too thin" edge to a "strong enough" edge. It shouldn't require 4 steps to achieve this, IMO.

not to mention that properly honed razor finished on a quality stone does not require any pastes after.

True, but that is how some of us learn and solve problems.

and also introduces a lot of myths half truths and in general makes honing more complicated concept than it is. During the years the forum has seen plenty of examples of inventions of pseudo- honing methods or techniques to compensate for lack of enough practice or just skill.

Experimenting with different approaches to honing is what keeps this hobby interesting to us.
Personally, I apply the scientific method to almost everything from honing to cooking ribs on my BGE.

You know there is years of experience compounded in threads here, all that there is to honing is already discovered and tested, it is available to find and learn from it, again it is very simple, it takes practice not more hones /sprays SEM or a science lab.

My preference is to take the edge to 16k shapton or 20k gokumyo and then slightly convex the apex with 0.25 micron diamond on leather.

Your approach is good with the hone system you use. I do not know how people get foil edge on a razor, in my experience that is a problem with razors with steel issues, majority do not suffer any of that. I am not sure if foil edge can be technique issue but I may be wrong here.
In the end everyone should try honing in various ways for learning purposes but honing is not a science, just practice.

Yes, tried it… it works, I have use CBN for a couple of years, it’s not fake, not magic, not voodoo myth… it’s just polishing, just like any thing after 1K.

What Matt was trying to do, I believe was take CBN to the extreme and remove all visible stria at a given magnification. There is always stria with enough magnification. This and all pasted stropping is just a continuation of polishing an edge, in most cases well beyond the capabilities of most stones.

Do you need it? No… really you do not need anything past 8K and leather. For years, many honed on sub 8K Arks and other stones and finished on leather with excellent, comfortable edges. But synthetic hones have made achieving a repeatable keener edge much quicker and easier, fueling the arms race. This is just an extension of the same, some attempt to do it with stones Shaptons, Gokumyo, Eschers, and Hi grit – Hi dollar Japanese Naturals, this is no different.

It is all polishing the bevel to polish the edge, the finer the stria, the straighter the edge and more comfortable the shave because the finer stria creates a shallower saw tooth edge.

CBN is second to diamond in hardness, yet does not leave the harshness commonly associated with diamond sprays from the deep stria from the shape of the diamond and resulting edge.

There is much written here and other sites on CBN, it will remove stria and leave a very comfortable edge…you do not have to remove all stria or do as many laps as Matt demonstrated to get a very comfortable and repeatable shaving edge.

The edge is not too fragile to be stropped. It is that most strops contain natural grit larger than the CBN spray and will leave stria from contaminates, negating the polishing. CBN .50 spray after Chrome Oxide, on a well-honed 8, 12 K or higher edge will give you a very keen comfortable edge that can be maintained indefinitely with .50 CBN.

At least he's not challenging an renowned SRP honer to a karate match at his house over the internet.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I'd say his bevels are polished to a high degree but I can't comment on his edges. Didn't even see many edge pics in 14mins worth of video.
I think he's missing the point.
First of all there's no such thing as the edge of the edge . There is the bevel & there is the edge.

My bad, I was using poor verbage to try to explain my observation. In my mind the "edge" is a part of the blade like the "toe" and the "heel" are parts, and the edge consists of the bevel. You are correct, the bevel creates the edge.
My apologies.