Thread: Avoiding bad buying decisions and wasted money

Leatherstockiings, I have a strong suspicion that the guys over at the Straight Razor Magazine might have written that article with rigged reviews in mind, too. These reviews have become a massive problem. I think that beginners in particular should be made aware of the fact that all that glitters is not gold, and that there are dozens of undercover vendors and their cronies at work in several wet shaving forums, including this one.

I think vendors should be clearly distinguishable (like with the vendor buttons here, although those are a bit problematic, too) from consumers. I also think that fraudsters should be exposed, banned, and their employers be permanently banned along with their products. HTGAM/PPF/PAA come to mind immediately, not least because they sold mislabeled products in addition to shilling. And that is just the beginning. A friend of mine is a highly successful chemist, and I recently gave him 16 "artisan" soaps. He says that none (yes, none - zero, nada, keine) contain the (expensive) essential oils they claim to contain, but that they contain (dirt cheap) fragrance oils instead.

So, beginners should be made aware of that. And I really like the article Pithor quoted in that respect. It can be used to easily, and convincingly, explain a lot of highly praised shaving items and their alleged mythical qualities.

Only, it takes an open mind to really benefit from the article, so it will get a lot of criticism from the guys with the high post counts. And the undercover vendors. And their cronies. But that is as it should be. Many enemies much honour and all that.

Originally Posted by RobinK

So, beginners should be made aware of that. And I really like the article Pithor quoted in that respect. It can be used to easily, and convincingly, explain a lot of highly praised shaving items and their alleged mythical qualities.

Only, it takes an open mind to really benefit from the article, so it will get a lot of criticism from the guys with the high post counts. And the undercover vendors. And their cronies. But that is as it should be. Many enemies much honour and all that.

The problem with sites such as this (and I'm sure all the others have similar rules) is that criticism of vendors is prohibited. Myself and several of the other Western Australian members began a thread in which we critiqued a certain vendor in Perth with whom we had all had bad experiences. The thread was censured by the moderator and I was warned about criticising vendors (we don't do that at SRP). The problem I see with that is that it reduces sites such as this to backslapping, high-fiving forums where we end up repeating the same topics over and over again every six months as a new batch of members comes through asking the same old questions, without allowing us all to pool our experiences and cull the incompetent sellers, thereby benefiting all enthusiasts. Then again, I've always been a cynic. Ok moderators, this is when you send me a PM, or not so PM, saying something like, "You know the rules, if you don't like like 'em..."

This is a very interesting thread that not only relates to wet shaving but every aspect of society itself. We live in a world of consumerism with more disposable income that ever before. We are a marketing dream and ever ready to part with our hard earned cash.

When I first started with a straight razor I never knew about SRP but quickly found it and spent hours pouring over the library. With all the information available I thought what's the point in a forum? All the information I will ever need is there in black and white. After a while I began to love SRP and enjoy evreyones thoughts on this hobby (if it wasn't a hobby we wouldn't be here.) I also learned very quickly that you definitely have to separate the wheat from the chafe. There are members on here who have a lot of experience and I cherish their help and expertise but some I cant understand what on earth they are thinking when they are posting, some of which bears no relevance the question being asked, biased or just nonsensical.
This can have a detrimental effect on beginners success, so like myself I always encourage beginners to fully read the library, digest it, learn the basics, become profficent and go from there.

The acronym YMMV is never a truer wood spoken, whilst some may swere by product x, meathod y or anything z this doesn't always relate to everyone so shouldn't be taken at face value.

This is just my ramblings and should also be taken with a pinch of salt.

Originally Posted by puketui41

The problem with sites such as this (and I'm sure all the others have similar rules) is that criticism of vendors is prohibited."

It's a delicate problem. To play the devil's advocate, many manufacturers (I don't care about vendors) don't speak the language, let alone have time to busy themselves with fora. They could get badmouthed without even knowing. And it's happened before, elsewhere more than here. I personally appreciate the fact that SRP staff are protecting manufacturers. This comes at a price, of course. But a well written negative review on Google reaches a far wider audience than one here. Many people underestimate the power of Google reviews...

Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

When I first started with a straight razor I never knew about SRP but quickly found it and spent hours pouring over the library. With all the information available I thought what's the point in a forum? All the information I will ever need is there in black and white. After a while I began to love SRP and enjoy evreyones thoughts on this hobby (if it wasn't a hobby we wouldn't be here.)

When we built the Wiki, the idea of the team building it was to screen the existing content, ie analyse and assess it, then have the results peer reviewed. It took months to build, and some parts are still lacking. But overall, I'd say that it's the single most objective source of information available, not least because up to 25 experienced users reviewed each page.

There are some grey areas, though, most notably honing. To take an extreme position, pasted strops and maybe a natural hone have served European shavers forever. While experiments with high grit hones gather a lot of attention here, they are laughed about in the German, French, or Spanish fora. These fora, of course, have their pet subjects, too. Such as pasted strops But the Wiki has all the basics firmly covered. I always advise beginners to peruse the Wiki, then take an informed buying decision, then learn to shave, and only then use the forum proper. There is such a thing as too much information, and separating the wheat from the chaff takes a fairly high amount of experience. Also, withstanding several of the biases mentioned above takes a lot of experience. XYZ razors aren't the holy grail. There is no holy grail. There are hardly any bad soaps, and the best usually aren't. And so on.

It's not rocket science. Rocket science is just complicated, and almost everyone can learn complicated things. Shaving is complex, and mastering complex subjects takes lateral thinking, keeping an open mind, and a very, very liberal dose of Ockham's razor.

Another thing I learned is Lovely, beautiful, and “minty” are in the eyes of the beholder.

Originally Posted by RobinK

It's not rocket science. Rocket science is just complicated, and almost everyone can learn complicated things. Shaving is complex, and mastering complex subjects takes lateral thinking, keeping an open mind, and a very, very liberal dose of Ockham's razor.

Only on an internet shaving forum can one read that mastering shaving is a more creative and complex process than building spacecraft

Originally Posted by gugi

Only on an internet shaving forum can one read that mastering shaving is a more creative and complex process than building spacecraft

Yes, that is a common misconception, Ivan. But understanding the difference is quite important. Because some people here are making things look complicated when if fact they aren't. Anything that has to do with straight razors is extremely uncomplicated. But shaving is a comparatively complex process - if you go beyond "sharpened edge glides across lubricated skin and removes facial hair."

“ … the main difference between complicated and complex systems is that with the former, one can usually predict outcomes by knowing the starting conditions. In a complex system, the same starting conditions can produce different outcomes, depending on interactions of the elements in the system.”

For example, building a highway is complicated, but managing urban traffic congestion is complex. Likewise, building a state-of-the-art air traffic control center is a complicated challenge in executing a project, while directing air traffic is complex, involving in-the-moment problem-solving. [Source]

While there is a difference between complex and complicated, I think you're probably not very familiar with 'rocket science' otherwise you would've chosen a better example.

It is both complicated and complex and I would argue that the level of complexity far exceeds that of shaving. Provided that you measure their complexity by the same standard, of course.

Great write in the post
A must read for any beginner on the road to understanding our sport
Thanks for the link

I'd caution any beginner also that the same thing happens right here on the beloved SRP....not false reviews for profit....just expression of opinions by MANY members of widely varying knowledge, and insight. I myself have been guilty of saying, soap xxxxxxx is great, only to gain more experience with other products that I then know are better.

I'd suggest that the old "opinions are like (name a body part), everybody has one" is true, and particularly new folks should take advice only after weighing the experience (# of posts) or balance of advice of the person they are inclined to listen to. YMMV is largely true, and one man's gold, may be another's trash.

So keep your eyes (and mind) open, as my dad used to say.