Thread: Help honing kamisori

Hello, I introduced myself earlier on the intro forum. Thanks for the welcome! https://sharprazorpalace.com/member-...cing-self.html

So I have many Japanese swords (Nihonto and reproductions), the Nihonto being low end ones to practice polishing, Japanese knives, and some Japanese carpentry tools. For swords, knives, and planes/chisels, I can sharpen them pretty well. They will all shave, though not great (work fine for hand hair). However, I?ve been struggling to hone these two kamisori that I have. It?s like the skills that I have for these other ones aren?t really transferring over and I?m a bit at a loss.





So the story for the kamisori in the picture is that it?s an iwasaki I bought from Kent of Inglewood. It wasn?t too expensive. It came honed, but it dulled quickly (before I could finish half my face), so I suspected that it was honed with a foil burr.

So I decided I would rehone it so that it didn?t have a burr. I do all my sharpening edge leading Japanese style, and I read on science of sharp it should be possible to remove the microburr that always forms when you do this to be able to end up with a sharp razor?s edge.

I also watched this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYlM-02pxxA

and this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gokHkUQkWj0

I?ve also read Alex Gilmore?s book ?Japanese Sharpening Stone Heaven? and looked at his website.

I have a paddle strop I bought from A Frames Tokyo (smooth side shown with the razor)

I have a lot of stones (way too many!), but these are the ones that I?m using currently:



Along the top, I have a binsui ~700 grit. Beside it an atoma 140.

On the bottom, I have an Aizu ~3000 grit, and Otaniyama ~6000 grit, an Ohira ~8000 grit, and an Okudo 10000+ grit, 5+. Beside that is the three lapping stones I use, an omura ~300 grit, a binsui ~700 grit, and a Koma nagura ~9000 grit.

The Otaniyama I use because it?s my flattest and hardest stone in that range. The Ohira because it?s relatively hard and flat, the Okudo because I heard on the Facebook JNat group that it should be a good finishing stone for razors. All of them I bought from Ikkyu Japan, but if you guys think another particular stone might be better, I probably have one, or one like it. I?m a rockhound who likes whetstones, so I also have a fair number from Manitoba, and a couple of other ones; one from Korea, one from Crete, a blue belgian coticule, for example. The coarse ones I've been using to try to set the bevel, because it takes way too long at 8000 grit and up. The Binsui is pretty fine for a binsui, and being natural it takes longer than a synth, but also leaves shallower scratches. The atoma I use for flattening, but usually follow it up with an omura, a binsui, and then a fine stone like the koma nagura, and carefully wash so there's no stray large grits.

I also recently bought a microscope.

So my problem is that I can get it to shave, but not comfortably. It will shave hand hair, and I've gotten a reasonable result with the tree topping test once, but I've lost that and am struggling to get it back. I try to start over, but it ends up worse than before!

Lately I?ve spent about 2 hours trying GSSixGun?s technique. I like it, I think it?s a good one, but I don?t think the bevel is right on the kamisori yet, so it?s not working.

Under the microscope, I think the soft side is perfect, the bevel is flat to the end. However, on the hard/printed side, there?s a bit of a microbevel just at the very end. Also, I can tell using my optivisor and a bright light that the end isn?t quite perfectly sharp yet (white line at the very tip, not black that shows it's perfectly sharp). Normally I'd incline the blade a bit, in this case on the hard side, so I'm sharpening just the edge, but I'm worried I won't get an acute enough angle that way, or that I'll be grinding away the edge too much.

So my dilemma is should I keep honing the printed side until the macro bevel is worn away and goes to the edge (wasting more steel), or should I try to make some kind of secondary bevel to the edge (maybe layers of tape on the spine?) to speed up the process and not waste steel. Again, I like GSSixGun?s technique, I?m going to use it. The problem is getting the bevel set up properly so that it works. I'm not sure how acute the angle should be, but I don't want to end up with a foil burr again. I try to use his technique exactly as he did it. What I'm not sure of is how the hands work. Up to now I use it as I normally do, very light pressure down, but putting a torque on the razor toward the edge. Thanks!

PS. I started trying to hone the other kamisori I have, but since I obviously don?t know what I?m doing yet, if I?m going to ruin it, I?d rather just ruin one!

Originally Posted by Larason2

Hello, I introduced myself earlier on the intro forum. Thanks for the welcome! https://sharprazorpalace.com/member-...cing-self.html

So I have many Japanese swords (Nihonto and reproductions), the Nihonto being low end ones to practice polishing, Japanese knives, and some Japanese carpentry tools. For swords, knives, and planes/chisels, I can sharpen them pretty well. They will all shave, though not great (work fine for hand hair). However, I?ve been struggling to hone these two kamisori that I have. It?s like the skills that I have for these other ones aren?t really transferring over and I?m a bit at a loss.





So the story for the kamisori in the picture is that it?s an iwasaki I bought from Kent of Inglewood. It wasn?t too expensive. It came honed, but it dulled quickly (before I could finish half my face), so I suspected that it was honed with a foil burr.

So I decided I would rehone it so that it didn?t have a burr. I do all my sharpening edge leading Japanese style, and I read on science of sharp it should be possible to remove the microburr that always forms when you do this to be able to end up with a sharp razor?s edge.

I also watched this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYlM-02pxxA

and this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gokHkUQkWj0

I?ve also read Alex Gilmore?s book ?Japanese Sharpening Stone Heaven? and looked at his website.

I have a paddle strop I bought from A Frames Tokyo (smooth side shown with the razor)

I have a lot of stones (way too many!), but these are the ones that I?m using currently:



Along the top, I have a binsui ~700 grit. Beside it an atoma 140.

On the bottom, I have an Aizu ~3000 grit, and Otaniyama ~6000 grit, an Ohira ~8000 grit, and an Okudo 10000+ grit, 5+. Beside that is the three lapping stones I use, an omura ~300 grit, a binsui ~700 grit, and a Koma nagura ~9000 grit.

The Otaniyama I use because it?s my flattest and hardest stone in that range. The Ohira because it?s relatively hard and flat, the Okudo because I heard on the Facebook JNat group that it should be a good finishing stone for razors. All of them I bought from Ikkyu Japan, but if you guys think another particular stone might be better, I probably have one, or one like it. I?m a rockhound who likes whetstones, so I also have a fair number from Manitoba, and a couple of other ones; one from Korea, one from Crete, a blue belgian coticule, for example. The coarse ones I've been using to try to set the bevel, because it takes way too long at 8000 grit and up. The Binsui is pretty fine for a binsui, and being natural it takes longer than a synth, but also leaves shallower scratches. The atoma I use for flattening, but usually follow it up with an omura, a binsui, and then a fine stone like the koma nagura, and carefully wash so there's no stray large grits.

I also recently bought a microscope.

So my problem is that I can get it to shave, but not comfortably. It will shave hand hair, and I've gotten a reasonable result with the tree topping test once, but I've lost that and am struggling to get it back. I try to start over, but it ends up worse than before!

Lately I?ve spent about 2 hours trying GSSixGun?s technique. I like it, I think it?s a good one, but I don?t think the bevel is right on the kamisori yet, so it?s not working.

Under the microscope, I think the soft side is perfect, the bevel is flat to the end. However, on the hard/printed side, there?s a bit of a microbevel just at the very end. Also, I can tell using my optivisor and a bright light that the end isn?t quite perfectly sharp yet (white line at the very tip, not black that shows it's perfectly sharp). Normally I'd incline the blade a bit, in this case on the hard side, so I'm sharpening just the edge, but I'm worried I won't get an acute enough angle that way, or that I'll be grinding away the edge too much.

So my dilemma is should I keep honing the printed side until the macro bevel is worn away and goes to the edge (wasting more steel), or should I try to make some kind of secondary bevel to the edge (maybe layers of tape on the spine?) to speed up the process and not waste steel. Again, I like GSSixGun?s technique, I?m going to use it. The problem is getting the bevel set up properly so that it works. I'm not sure how acute the angle should be, but I don't want to end up with a foil burr again. I try to use his technique exactly as he did it. What I'm not sure of is how the hands work. Up to now I use it as I normally do, very light pressure down, but putting a torque on the razor toward the edge. Thanks!

PS. I started trying to hone the other kamisori I have, but since I obviously don?t know what I?m doing yet, if I?m going to ruin it, I?d rather just ruin one!

If there is a double/micro bevel anywhere I would get rid of it, particularly if it is small as you describe. You probably have already removed most of it.
Its probably the reason you are not getting better results - you are not hitting the absolute edge.
Someone must have used tape or freehanded to get that which is not needed or wanted for that matter.

IIRC, honing with the edge leading may create a burr on the edge and some stokes with the blade edge trailing will remove the burr. Asymmetrically ground blades like traditional Kamisoi have, will have two difference angles on the edge because of the grind. Also, with that type of grind only one side of the blade is traditionally used towards the face. A lot of people can and do ignore that last bit and use either side of the blade.

Bob

A microbevel is not necessarily a bad thing, in fact it can make an edge more durable. It is a technique used a lot for chisels and planes and can be very useful for edge retention. BUT if used on a razor, when refreshing, you have to hone to the same angle which will either take some trial and error which is probably easiest taping the spine in various layers and using the sharpie test. As stated though it's probably easiest and maybe best overall to hone it out and start with a fresh bevel.

This might help

https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...bing-over.html


#1 Do a Sharpie aka Magic Marker Test you will be surprised at what you learn and see

#2 Add a layer of tape to what you are doing,,, see what happens at least as a test

My biggest take away from what you posted is right here
I?ve spent about 2 hours trying GSSixGun?s technique. I like it, I think it?s a good one, but I don?t think the bevel is right on the kamisori yet, so it?s not working.


2 Hours ??? Hmmmm that worries me

Thanks all!

Yes hours. That comes from sharpening swords where 70-100 hours is pretty typical for a sword, and it's pretty common to spend more time on higher grits rather than make a mistake and ruin what you're going for.

More accurately is I tried your technique for 20 minutes, tested it, then worked on the bevel for a bit, 20 minutes of that, then try your technique again for about two hours. The microscope helped a lot, I think, and the suggestions above. I'm accustomed to spend a lot of time on the bevel on a 1000 grit Binsui natural stone that doesn't cut as fast, but doesn't waste as much metal, and is less likely to leave chips. I'm pretty close to getting the bevel right, then I think I'll spend 20 minutes on your technique and hopefully that will do it! I think usually a knife should be pretty sharp after you're done with the 1000, the other grits are to refine the edge.

"So my dilemma is should I keep honing the printed side until the macro bevel is worn away and goes to the edge (wasting more steel)"

I think maybe, Yes .

You can lightly rest 3 fingers on the edge to aid with the torque you may already be applying.

Check the post I linked below . If yours looks like first pic it needs work to become like the second pic. This is at 200x or so . Yes its the stamped Ura side. It has to be set flat and even.

On Jp Planes & chisels there's processes for flattening the backs of blades even involving hammers. Ura -Oshi & Ura Dashi. With razors you basically just need the stone scratches to reach the edge. I'm assuming that's your problem.

https://sharprazorpalace.com/advance...tml#post892889

Originally Posted by Larason2

Thanks all!

Yes hours. That comes from sharpening swords where 70-100 hours is pretty typical for a sword, and it's pretty common to spend more time on higher grits rather than make a mistake and ruin what you're going for.

More accurately is I tried your technique for 20 minutes, tested it, then worked on the bevel for a bit, 20 minutes of that, then try your technique again for about two hours. The microscope helped a lot, I think, and the suggestions above. I'm accustomed to spend a lot of time on the bevel on a 1000 grit Binsui natural stone that doesn't cut as fast, but doesn't waste as much metal, and is less likely to leave chips. I'm pretty close to getting the bevel right, then I think I'll spend 20 minutes on your technique and hopefully that will do it! I think usually a knife should be pretty sharp after you're done with the 1000, the other grits are to refine the edge.

We actually have what we call the

1K shave challenge, Search it

90% of honing SRs is in the Bevel set, once the bevel is properly set it should surprise you at how well it shaves

Kamisori unfortunately are not "Quite" as good at this challenge as their western counterparts but they are close
They depend a little more on Keenness for their excellent shaves

ps: Read what Onimaru aka Oz wrote again about "Torque" it is often the missing component when honing SRs

One thing I noticed in your op is that you mention at least 4 or 5 different sources of information. This can be good but it can also muddy the water especially if they conflict which I know some of the sources you mention do. Add to that you being new to honing razors (if it hasn't been said already it is a different animal from sharpening knives and other edged tools) and it can be further complicated. It seems to me that you are likely better served to pick one source you find reliable and that you can easily follow with comfort and learn their method. Once you have that down then try another source until you are sucessful at their method etc. I fear that taking so much different advice may impede having success with any. Personally I recommend following Glen's (Gssixgun) direction as I am familiar with his skill and know he can lead you to success. Others you mention may too but Glen is proven. Maybe ask for a zoom or skype session. Most people here will be willing to help.

It looks like you are using all natural stones to learn razor honing. Whilst it seems you have a good handle on your nats, it's often wise to learn razor honing with synths. Synths have a known and consistent grit size and remove alot of the variables of nats. I use a synth progression up to 5 or 8k and finish on nats, but we all have our own methods. Good luck and keep at it.