Thread: A logical progression for learning to hone

Originally Posted by Pete_S

Well, I'm the guy on the other end of the equation, the one who is just learning, but I think my experiences might be useful to you. So far I've gotten 5 razors up and running. I don't know how your friend feels about honing, but part of the appeal of straits to me was honing, so I didn't have any issues with learning this skill and the problems that I knew I'd hit, but perhaps he might.

I think the best method is the start from scratch approach-I think that a newbie and a barber hone are gonna result in a dull razor, it certainly would have for me when I started out- I even managed to de shave ready my razor with my first stropping. It is a steeper learning curve, but when the process was demystified, I became much more comfortable with razor maintenance. Before this I felt there was a big old sword of Damocles hanging over my head every time I shaved, stropped, or considered trying to touch up a razor.

Make sure that he gets a Norton 4k/8k, I tried to get by with just a DMT 8k dia plate since they supposedly cut so fast, and ended up taking forever and a day to hone my first razors . Once I got the Norton and started with the pyramiding honing was much easier.

One other thing, as stated above, if your friend is experienced at honing knives and such he will have alot to unlearn. For example, the no/ultra-low pressure thing took me a while to get down-I'd space out to lala land while honing and come back to find myself pressing the razor into the stone like it was a knife.

Originally Posted by WongKonPow

Well, I'm a knife collector whog ot interesting in straight razors. I bought one of the white handled double arrow razors off of ebay, grabbed my water stones and honed and shaved and honed and shaved until I felt that I could get a good shave. I did a lot of research though, lots of youtube videos and a fait bit of reading. I switched completely from Mach 3 to straight razor in one fail swoop. Luckily it wasn't too much of a fail.

I have a lot of admiration for those brave souls who suffer thru gnarly shave after gnarly shave until they get it right. I had one foot in that camp for a while when I graduated from doing barber hone touchups to doing a full hone...and then later again when I did a total breadknife restore. I'm not disputing that it's possible to do that but it's sort of like teaching someone to swim by throwing them out of the boat in the deep part of the lake. I'm just trying to save a poor soul from a little suffering.

As for the hones I would never be so presumptuous to declare any one hone the must have silver bullet of honing so I'll let him decide. I have a Norton 4/8k and I rarely use it anymore. I'm using mostly Shaptons now - but then again there's nothing quite like the almost erotic feel of a natural such as a Coticule. While the Norton is a fine hone to learn on I'm going to give him the opportunity that I never had...try them all and see which ones feel the best (and probably more important work the best with the razor he has) without the expense of having to buy them all.

Well, I can't sleep right now so I'm going to chime in.

I am no honemeister. I started straight shaving because I was tired of paying for disposables. My first hone was on an 800/400. I know, my poor dovo. I tried shaving with it and clearly I dulled it. Went back to the dumb knife store people and asked for the highest grit hone. It was some unbranded ceramic, slightly finer than a spyderco fine. Ok, I've been honing knives since I was 8 and was an obsessive compulsive when it came to making things sharp. With absolutely no training or guidance, I went to work. Ok, I was told this one piece of knowledge. "The razor's edge angle is exactly what the spine to the hone is." Well, I didn't follow that advice and I lifted the razor slightly and because the hone was 2" wide, I had to use an X pattern.

I have no idea how I did it, but I managed to make that razor shave. It probably sucked, but it shaved. Fast forward, and I've got the proper equipment and knowledge to hone up a blade. Ok, how did I learn. I went the dumb ass route where I just keep trying until I get it right. I don't even know how many times I messed up the blade on my Dovo...

The easiest way is to first: be obsessive about sharpness. Second, understand what the final product is supposed to be. Third, watch a video or have someone show you. That said, its really about practice. No matter what, your going to be bending over that hone for hours. The beginner has to go slowly. Very very slowly. Then keep doing it for hours until you develop the muscles memory.

I hear dish soap or some other lubricant helps "stick" the blade to the stone. Probably not necessary on a 3" hone though.

Also, being really poor and having plenty of time on your hands helps. At that point, you can't afford to send it to a honemeister and you have to get it right or else you can't shave.

Originally Posted by AusTexShaver

I have a lot of admiration for those brave souls who suffer thru gnarly shave after gnarly shave until they get it right. I had one foot in that camp for a while when I graduated from doing barber hone touchups to doing a full hone...and then later again when I did a total breadknife restore. I'm not disputing that it's possible to do that but it's sort of like teaching someone to swim by throwing them out of the boat in the deep part of the lake. I'm just trying to save a poor soul from a little suffering.

As for the hones I would never be so presumptuous to declare any one hone the must have silver bullet of honing so I'll let him decide. I have a Norton 4/8k and I rarely use it anymore. I'm using mostly Shaptons now - but then again there's nothing quite like the almost erotic feel of a natural such as a Coticule. While the Norton is a fine hone to learn on I'm going to give him the opportunity that I never had...try them all and see which ones feel the best (and probably more important work the best with the razor he has) without the expense of having to buy them all.

Heh, I haven't suffered through many bad shaves, I had my DE at the ready. My dedication to straights stops way short of maschosim.

I think most of the trouble people have with honing is lack of information. I'm no prodigy, but if I'd had someone show me how to get stuff done over an afternoon, I would have had few problems honing razors. It sounds like you're helping your buddy out quite a bit, so he should pick things up alot easier than most people who pretty much only have the internet as a resource.

Originally Posted by Pete_S

I think most of the trouble people have with honing is lack of information. I'm no prodigy, but if I'd had someone show me how to get stuff done over an afternoon, I would have had few problems honing razors. It sounds like you're helping your buddy out quite a bit, so he should pick things up alot easier than most people who pretty much only have the internet as a resource.

I think the problem is just the opposite...people have TOO MUCH information thanks to the internet...and quite a bit of it is conflicting at best or just plain wrong.

The hardest part for me to learn was exactly what sharp feels like. I guess I have numb thumb syndrome or something.

AusTex. I learned just the opposite of you. Funny. I would choose the method I learned by. Which is starting with 1k and lightly BKd edge.

There's several reasons, but you have to look at it from the pov that it is separate from learning to shave; which I must admit is best learned with a sharp instrument doing daily maintenance.

With a fine hone it may be difficult to know what's happening. With 1k all the important things are happening, and the change is quick and apparent. Less time to learn bad habits Once you learn to shave your shins or even part of your face with 1k edge; the it's on. All the rest is refining and lightening the same techniques

I'm also not an expert, but I a rotation of razors that shave close and comfortable.

I started with a Dovo Classic Special and a DMT D8EE (8000 grit), along with an Illinois leather and linen strop. Unbeknownst to me, the blade on my Dovo was warped, but I tried and tried and eventually got that darn thing to shave. Then I bought a DMT D8E (1200 grit).

Now, when I buy a razor, I use the 1200 to set the bevel, then finish on the 8000 until all the coarser marks are gone in my microscope. then about 10-15 strokes on a bench strop coated with .5 micron green CrO, and 100 or so strokes on my wonderful Tony Miller strop, and she's usually ready to go.

I would love the chance to sit down with a real honemeister and see how my edge holds up, but I don't know of any that live within range of me. So for now, at least I know that I can shave close and comfortable, and that I got there in many cases the hard way, but it works for me. I've sold a couple of razors and had no complaints about sharpness, so hopefully I'm doing something right.

Something that should be brought to attention is the fact that not everyone gets into honing for the same reasons. Many members fancy themselves as future honemeisters, being able to put a fantastic edge on ANY razor just like Lynn and the other pros. However some, like myself, will be happy to just be able to touch up an edge to perfection without any ambition to restore crappy butterknife-dull blades back to there former glory. And restorations of course means you need to invest in the full range of (insert your favorite brand here) beautiful but very pricey hones to accomplish this feat. I believe that newbies read all sorts of threads from members saying that they need half a dozen hones to get that perfect edge, and the newb then thinks he/she has to go and get the exact same setup. The reality is that they don't have to do that. A very basic honing setup is all a person needs to SHAVE. Everything else is just part of the hobby. It is fully possible that after a while that person will become very proficient at touching up their edges and want to try their hand at restoration work. It is therefore my opinion that the newbie honer start with touchups (and a minimal honing setup) and once proficient at that task the transition to honing completely dull blades should be easier. It would be great if we all could be mentored by the pros, but this is not reality and we have to rely on our own individual learning curves.

My 2 cents:
I have been shaving with a straight and honing my own razors since 1977. In my humble opinion, this forum puts out tons of information on honing. Although all of the advice is well meant, it is sometimes just too indepth. I like to tell those I've taught to shave and sharpen, that it's not rocket science. It is nothing more than sharpening steel to cut hair. With that perspective in mind, technology has progressed in leaps and strides when it comes to sharpening mediums/materials. There are perhaps more advanced techniques and stones than ever before. Nonetheless, and regardless of the space age polymers, exotic glass, nickel encompassed diamonds or the periodic element of CroOx, you must in ALL instances;
1 - Set the bevel properly and evenly with the LEAST amount of strokes on the stone of your choice. (If this 1st step is neglected, the rest will be in vain and highly frustrating)
2 - Regardless of the stone, the razor must always remain flat, using a light even pressure. (light pressure is the weight of the razor itself without it lifting off the stone)
3 - Progress to ever finer grits to achieve shave ready condition.
4 - Stop relying on all of the "Sharp Tests" ie...Hanging hair test, wet thumb test, galactic telescope test, Nano-gene microscope test for the determining factor. Why not SHAVE with it?!?! If it doesn't shave your face, but passed all of these, you're just going to have to continue honing right?
5 - Be patient. It takes time and experience to learn what it feels like to hone properly with repeatable results.
6 - Stropping the razor is as important as honing!

In closing, let me say that it would be to any new person's advantage to start with a professionally honed, shave ready razor when first learning to shave with a straight. There are 2 reasons for this. #1 Your first shaves will be successful lending to a lifetime enjoyment of the art #2 It will serve as a barometer when you start to hone or re-touch your own razor. I was taught to hone as the previous posts have suggested, by first learning to touch up my razor on a barber's hone of 10-12K and stropping. This too is how I taught my sons to start their honing. Now, so as not to be remiss, I'll leave an example of the way I recently sharpened an old razor found at an antique store. It was a carbon steel Red Imp with a spike point. There were no chips or pitting, nor was the blade warped. It was however not much sharper than a butter knife. In fact, while standing inside the store, I made a pass or two on my forearm and no hair was visibly removed.
1st - Cleaned the razor with alcohol and utilized Maas polish. It looked clean and shiny after just these two. I generally do not mind if my razors have some water stains.
2nd - 10 passes on DMT D8E 9 micron or 1200 grit to set the bevel. At this point the razor would remove hair from my forearm.
3rd - 20 passes on DMT D8EE 3 micron or 8000 grit. It was very sharp and probably would have been a decent shave after this step. I never ever touch the blade to my skin or hair after this step.
4th - 50 passes on Chinese 12K wet
5th - 100 passes on 3in leather strop - Tony Miller Strop.
That's It! It took 1 hour from the beginning of the cleaning stage to the end where I stropped the razor it's final stroke. I shaved with it the next morning and it was extremely sharp and smooth with the grain and against the grain. In fact, it will be a better shaver after I use it a couple of more times. For the record, I keep all of my razors sharp with only a small Swaty barber's hone and a leather strop. Yes, eventually they all must go back to the honing stone at some point. I truly hope this posts is beneficial for those just starting out.

Great reply as usual, Dean! Good to see you back, as it was just the other day I was wondering where you went. I remember you gave me some great advice when I started last Oct/Nov, and now I'm getting great shaves. I like how you simplify things to normalcy, if that makes any sense. Thanks.

Ryan

Originally Posted by kevint

AusTex. I learned just the opposite of you. Funny. I would choose the method I learned by. Which is starting with 1k and lightly BKd edge.

There's several reasons, but you have to look at it from the pov that it is separate from learning to shave; which I must admit is best learned with a sharp instrument doing daily maintenance.

With a fine hone it may be difficult to know what's happening. With 1k all the important things are happening, and the change is quick and apparent. Less time to learn bad habits Once you learn to shave your shins or even part of your face with 1k edge; the it's on. All the rest is refining and lightening the same techniques

While I certainly agree with you about the difficulty of knowing what's happening at the finer grits, it's been my experience that two of the hardest things to learn by someone who's just starting out are when it's necessary to use a 1k and when to stop using it and move on to the higher grits.

I would also dispute the "less time to learn bad habits" as it's not only common but necessary to use a little pressure (OK OK sometimes more than a little ) on the 1k if you're dealing with very dull blade or one such as a wedge that needs LOTS of metal removed before you transition from the removing metal phase to the actual bevel setting phase. In addition there are advanced strokes to learn (like doing circles) to get the bevel as perfect as it can be for the entire length of the blade to make your life easier on the higher grits.

If you want to see the ultimate in frustration give a new guy (who is just to the point of having a little success with getting a perfectly straight blade sharp with the Norton) a totally dull badly warped blade and tell him to have at it. But you don't really have to do that as you can read about that experience on this forum at quite frequent intervals.