Thread: Thumb test -- how does it work?

Originally Posted by Bart

Jeezes, Richmondesi, please have that cup of coffee.
No need to loose your temper. There was exactly as much sarcasm in my "2 centuries" statement as in your "Gospel" statement.

All posts on a forum are published in a separate frame, with the poster's name next to it. It obviously is my opinion, that plucking an extremely thin razor's edge is not the right way to probe for sharpness.
I could add "I think" or "I feel" for political correctness, but it remains my opinion that a razors edge should not be pulled across for probing of sharpness. I recommend against it. Not because I like to be right (which I do like), but because I honestly believe people will benefit from the advice and experience I try to offer. Other people will offer other advice and experience. And everyone will do in the end what he thinks is best.
That's how forums work.

By the way, I read in a post that you wrote while I was typing one of mine, that you never TPT after 4K.
May I note that in some barbering textbooks, the TPT is reserved for assessing stropping results? I personally use it mostly during the finer honing stages. Maybe that explains why we might have a different opinions and appreciations for it.

Kind and gentle greetings,
Bart.

I didn't loose my temper, and the "gospel" comment was trying to ascertain the level of authority attributed to the barbers manual. I didn't intend any sarcasm, so I apologize for not being clear because I certainly didn't mean any sarcasm.

As to the way we phrase things: When you say things without qualifying them, you may intend them to only be representative of your opinion. That's not how they read though. Some things are known facts in which there is no wiggle room. "The X razor is made out of Y steel and has Z grind" would be an example of this. There's no need to say IMO there. "X razor is the best razor because it is made up of Y steel ,which is undoubtedly the best, and Z grind is the only quality grind on any razor " would need the IMO clarification (IMO ).

FWIW, I've had my cup of coffee this morning. My comment was more that you probably wouldn't have taken that tone had you been sitting with me enjoying a cup of coffee while having this conversation. It's one of the things I don't like forums.

Note on the when question: I pretty much think that the razor is as sharp as it's going to get around 4k, and only marginal sharpness is gained thereafter. I could be wrong, but I think I get my smoothness and comfort after that. In fact, I've shaved pretty comfortably off of the 8K. So, once it's "sharp", I don't feel the need to keep testing it and potentially affecting the edge negatively. That's just my mindset.

Originally Posted by Bart

The wiki article indeed means across, not along.

It was under debate over here, long time ago. There were 2 camps. Sometimes, both camps are right, but in this particular case, I have always felt the "across" camp was wrong. (They were a minority, but some senior members adhered to it).

I don't think if you go very gingerly across, that you will do much damage to the edge, but still you wont be able the estimate the sharpness as precisely as you should for razor use. Moving along, things like micro-shipping can easily be felt.

Across is to probe for the kind of sharpness you expect to find on a well honed kitchen knife. If it grabs it will still perform very well processing vegetables. But it won't necessarily shave.

Along is to discern differences in shaving sharpness. Barbers used it to check if a razor was sufficiently stropped. With some practice it is possible to feel the level of sharpness starting at the level a blade starts to shave soft arm hairs till all the way up to the point where it will shave hard beard hairs without pulling.

I have always felt the wiki article should be adjusted, but without any real consensus, who am I to do so?

Bart.

I totally agree you you on this Bart. Not trying to say that it is the "gospel" to do it ALONG the blade, but in many aspects, it makes the most sense. For one IMO, it's safer. I think too many people could slip or press too hard and slice a chunk off their thumb going ACROSS, not to mention, the potential to roll the edge is a LOT greater. Also, if you use common sense, how would you test a cutting instrument to see if it was sharp? That's right, CUT with it...and which direction do you cut? ALONG the cutting edge.

Originally Posted by richmondesi

So, is it the consensus that because the barber's manual described it that way that it's "the gospel"?

I don't believe that just because the barber's manual described it that way makes it the "gospel" but then again, why would you discard the long practiced and proven method of doing something? Do you disregard advice on other things from the professionals in that field without considering WHY they recommend doing it that way?

Originally Posted by richmondesi

Professing to tell people the "best" advice is not different than saying you are "right". In that other thread that was linked to, virtually all first hand experience that was recounted was of barbers doing the TPT as was described in the wiki originally. I quickly read all of the posts, but I may have missed a couple. The overwhelming majority of people in that thread agreed with the Wiki article.

This kind of stuff is the only thing that I don't like about razor forums. There is way too much testosterone in these circles... We don't have to be "right", and we sure don't have to be sarcastic and dismissive of each other. I'm betting that the tone and tenor of these kinds of discussions would be significantly different if you and I were having this conversation over a cup of coffee.

Telling someone the "best" way to do something isn't necessarily telling people that "I'm right and you're wrong." They are offering their experience to others and letting them know the best way THEY have found in their experimenting. If you're going to reject the advice of experts, then that's your prerogative, but think of it this way: Would you rather learn something by work of mouth or something that was printed in a professional manual, written by professionals?

AFAICT, no one is being "dismissive" of each other, and I really don't think anyone is trying to flood this thread with testosterone either.

Originally Posted by Bart

I wouldn't pluck the edge of a razor sideways.

Originally Posted by Bart

(...) I have always felt the "across" camp was wrong. (They were a minority, but some senior members adhered to it).

I don't think if you go very gingerly across, that you will do much damage to the edge (...)

I have always felt the wiki article should be adjusted, but without any real consensus, who am I to do so?

Originally Posted by Bart

I personally prefer to give people the best available advice. Alternatives can be mentioned as such.

No doubt, perfect edges can be honed, using an "across" TPT. (...)

Razors can also be honed and stropped without the need to touch the edge. That notion might put this discussion into perspective.

Must we really question ourselves till we can no longer find the original meaning between the IMHOs , the AFAIKs and the YMMVs?

There indeed was some sarcasm in my statement that the barber textbooks are only the culmination of 2 centuries of gathered wisdom. But it is true as well. They should not be rejected too easily, and I wanted to contribute that as a valid point to the discussion.
If my slight attempt to add some tongue in cheek humor, while making a point, was read as if I was trying to be dismissive on a personal level, I humbly apologize for my inapt use of the English language. I would have made a very similar remark if we were in a bar having a beer. Maybe it's a cultural difference.
I surely meant no disrespect, because that would be the exact opposite of how I value your input on this forum.


Concerning the point of probing at 4K or 8K level, I have no idea. I hone on a Coticule, and on those hones, sharpness and smoothness tend to develop simultaneously all the way till the very end of the honing procedure. It requires a lot of follow up on the keenness state of the edge.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Rob,

I know that you're pretty new to this forum, but there's a lot of other examples in which I was referring to as well. That was just an example of countless others. To the other points: If you can't gently go across the edge without damaging it, the chances are you can't go along the edge either. I'm not disregarding the manuals instructions, by any stretch. What I was illustrating is that there were people saying "you do it this way...", but the fact is that is A way to do it and not THE way to do it according to the Wiki as well as other members who were taught by barbers and had observed them.

As far as being dismissive goes. I read sarcastic comments to be dismissive because they are by definition patronizing when used in the context of debating an issue. Maybe I'm wrong, but let's just say that if you were attempting to befriend someone I'm guessing that you'd probably go about it a different way than the post I was referencing.

Originally Posted by Bart

That's actually the way to TPT a kitchen knife.
A razor does get TPT-ed with gentle, very short slicing motions along the blade. The edge sinks a bit into the skin (without completely slicing through it) and you can feel how that adds a slight draw to the sensation.

I wouldn't pluck the edge of a razor sideways.

The next picture shows and edge that once accidentally got plucked by my thumb while closing the razor with one hand. It didn't cut me.

The first part of this post is what I was referencing, and my guess is you know that. The effort to italicize "along" and the posting of the picture showing the reason why you said "I wouldn't..." read to me as authoritative instead of offering an opinion. Additionally, when I pointed out that there was a disagreement, you said

Yes, I'm aware of that

That didn't come across as being helpful. Just the way I read it.

Boy, razors sure are cool, aren't they fella's?

I enjoyed all 5 pages of this horse beating. Not only that, but I learned how to do the TPT... back to my stones.

Really?

The trick to learning the TPT is not which way you slide your thumb or if you slide it at all, it is just feeling a lot, a lot of edges.

If you feel enough of them, knives, razor blades, razor knives, scissors, and razor edges, eventually you will be able to tell when it is sharp and when it is SHARP.