Thread: made first straight razor!

thanks again!!

I might be miscommunicating something here... I guess I'm not using my machine to hone per se... just to set up the edge. I mean you have to use some kind of grinder to create the actual edge right? I just use the machine to grind an edge until I see a wire edge fold up, then I go to a stone and strop. If it is one of my working knives I would just polish the wire edge off and call it good. That shaves arm hair. If I'm making a skinner, I take it to a stone and strop. But it looks like my issue is that I don't have the stones to do a proper razor honing job. I'm doing some searching right now to see if I should invest in a finer grit water stone, or go the route of finishing with a stropping paste.

Anyway... Thanks for pointing out the maker's forum. I didn't see that or else I would've posted this thread there....

Nobody would doubt your ability to sharpen a knife. Many of us came here under the impression we knew a thing or two about sharpening an edge. You're going to progress far easier with this if you are able to approach this with an open mind as there is less common ground between honing a razor, & sharpening a knife than you might imagine.

Have a look at the Wiki.

The 1k hone is about where we'd start when restoring a damaged edge, so you're not going to get a comfortable shave from it.

If you are going to invest in finer stones, a Norton 4k/8k is an affordable option that will do you proud.

If you have a good range of pastes, you can get the edge you require from them. AFAIK there is very little knowledge regarding this method here though. We tend to use pastes to finish an edge. There are a fair number of chaps on the German forums that use pastes for the entire progression though.

I ordered the Norton 4k/8k! So maybe I'm getting on the right path. But now I don't have a razor to hone! I ground it down to a tang to use for making it a deer antler folder and I'm going to re-grind the other half in a more symmetrical, Western fashion... probably doing it hollow to increase the width of the thin cutting edge.

Thanks again for all the help... I don't mean to come across as a know-it-all because I'm a knife smith, I just learn by jumping into things and starting with what I know, and modifying as I go. I would probably get to it faster by doing more research.. but mistakes teach a lot more I think.

Another question... I'm still trying to get an understanding of the benefit of a secondary bevel. If you flat (or hollow) grind all the way to the edge, what is the benefit of the secondary bevel? It seems you would have a more aggressive cutting edge without the bevel. That is how my flat ground Scandinavian wood carving knives are done (I realize chin hair isn't wood!) Is it beneficial for the actual mechanics of shaving... or does it simply give the edge more resilience?

What secondary bevel????
I mean you could create one if you wanted to by taping the spine 1 layer of electrical tape for the final finish..., some of the guys do a secondary bevel but most don't...

BTW the "Average" bevel to spine angle is 16 degrees we did a ton of measuring on razors to find that...
The outside angles range from about 12 to 22 but most fall within 15-17


Edit: somehow I think you might be talking about a Bellied hollow in referring to a second bevel...

Here are some pics of different razor grinds

http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...ths_and_grinds

You certainly move fast Scott! Your enthusiasm is great. Glad you have plans to create another.
A single bevel allows you to create an edge that is both smooth & strong. Doesn't stubble have the same tensile strength as copper wire? The razor has to cut through, yet deliver a comfortable shave.
Look forward to seeing the next one.

I think the advantage of a secondary bevel as opposed to a flat grind is that there is a smaller area to hone. It is nice to have the relationship between the back of the razor and the edge form about a 16 degree angle, give or take 2 or 3 degrees.. It is like having a built in honing guide you lay it on the stone and your angle is automatic.

The Norton 4/8k is a good hone, it will get your razor shaving sharp. I do think that it would be a good idea to have a shave ready razor as a reference point so you have something to compare your self made razor to.

I like the looks of your razor. It looks better than my first, that is for sure. I am looking forward to more pictures.

come post in the workshop area

Charlie

Originally Posted by ScottARoush

thanks Tom....

From what you are saying, it sounds like it would be better to do a flat grind all the way to edge, or a slight hollow grind with edge at same level as spine to allow laying the razor completely flat on the stone... but if you put on a secondary bevel, then you can't simply lay it flat on the stone right??? You have hone it at the angle in which you set the secondary bevel...

As to honing to finer than 1000.... I'm not sure I understand that. If you get a wire edge and then polish it off with rouge on a strop.. you've achieved what you need to achieve right? My understanding of japanese water stones is that you form the edge at the coarser grits and the below that it's a series of polish grits that simply remove the wire edge without stropping. I could be way off base, but that is my understanding of sharpening japanese swords. Having said that, I do believe that honing is my problem. But I have a feeling it's because of my screwed up edge geometry. I'm about to just start completely over and go by some actual dimensions of an actual western styly razor. I reground last night to what looks to me to be a kamisori... and it's worse if anything. Shaves my cheek hair great... but can't get the chin and mustache.

As to temper....Well I know my 1084 and I temper it to 400 which should be something like 58 rockwell which would be less than a commercial razor. but that's just a matter of ease and frequency of sharpening...not the actual quality of the edge according to my understanding. Also... I use a variable speed KMG set at low settings and sharp belt for putting the initial edge on with frequent water dips.... I've never had an issue with losing temper on the belt. But I've sure seen it happen!

There are two razor profiles that seem to work. The Japanese and the European.

The Japanese has one side almost flat and the other side has the bevel.
Honing is done with the back flat on the hone - both sides. The flat side
is almost flat... it has a hollow that has about a five to ten foot radius. This "flat"
side is thin welded high carbon steel at R-63+. Most of the honing and
grinding is done on the bevel side which is mostly softer supporting iron/steel.
Think 70 hone strokes on the bevel side and two on the flat side a lot
like a wood working plane but not exactly.

The European profile is symmetric because the steel is also symmetric the
thickness of the back sets the angle of the bevel at in the 11-14 degree
range. Older European razors include the frame back where a thiner
high carbon steel blade is held in a welded lower carbon steel frame...
these framebacks when well made made good shavers.

A hollow grind makes it possible to hone the edge to sharpness
within a lifetime. The harder the steel the more hollow is important.

The handle is also important for two critical reasons. One is grip
and the other one is hand honing and STROPPING. A big wide
handle will be difficult to roll the blade under the thumb while
stropping. You indicated the temper your were targeting softer
steel needs to be stropped a lot. You do not want steel so soft
that it needs to be stropped a dozen times per face or so soft
that stropping does not refresh the edge. Too hard and the steel
will micro chip and be almost impossible to hone correctly. The
grip/ handle should not interfere with honing or stropping.

I should mention that the wire edge is problematic for shaving.
A wire edge is fragile and in my opinion the source of most nicks
and cuts.

You mentioned "cutting" contests. Cutting and shaving are very
different. One involves a slicing motion the other a pushing motion.
Slicing leverages the micro teeth of carbides in many cases, shaving
on the other hand wants a smooth sharp edge that snips whiskers
and does not slice skin. Anyone sharpening kitchen knives knows
how difficult a ripe tomato can be to slice....you make tomato sauce
with a chopping motion and slice with a push/pull...

I noted someone making the great suggestion that you pick up a razor to
test drive. At the top of this page is the Classified section. You will
find a number of reconditioned old and antique razors. Look for the
phrase "Shave Ready" as a hint that the blade has been correctly sharpened.
A sound steel blade with ugly but serviceable scales (handle) can
some days be had for less than $70. Often these are described as
shavers or beginner budget razors.

Looking at the photo of your first blade pix, give a lot more attention to the
spine. Defects on the spine will eventually show up on the edge.
I cannot tell if you ground a warp into the edge or the heat of grinding
warped the edge or if latent stress in the steel caused the warp.
A warped (potato chip) edge is difficult to sharpen. If the blank is
warped from heat treating.... think hard before investing 100 hours grinding
and polishing, true it up first.

Lastly, grind wet if you can to control the heating of the steel
even buffing can ruin the final temper.....

And always have fun....

Originally Posted by ScottARoush

I ordered the Norton 4k/8k!
...snip...
Another question... I'm still trying to get an understanding of the benefit of a secondary bevel. If you flat (or hollow) grind all the way to the edge, what is the benefit of the secondary bevel? It seems you would have a more aggressive cutting edge without the bevel. That is how my flat ground Scandinavian wood carving knives are done (I realize chin hair isn't wood!) Is it beneficial for the actual mechanics of shaving... or does it simply give the edge more resilience?

The norton combo is a good hone. Do lap it flat and remove the top
eighth of an inch from both sides. The way they make the Norton
often leaves bubbles and too much uneven binder on the surface.

Secondary bevels come from two common needs.

• Support of the edge
• Minimize the time on ultra fine hones.

Wood carving tools and axes are subject to a lot of stress. It is
common to round or multi bevel the edge to support the edge.

Straight razors almost never have a double bevel. However the
hardness of razor steel makes it common for some folk
to raise the spine/back by the thickness of one or two
layers of electrical tape. This places the smallest amount
of HARD steel on a slow cutting hone to give that last
little bit of sharpness. Also since bevels and hardness
differ some folk like to adjust the seasoning a little based
on their whiskers, face, hones, steel and preferences.
With modern steel and modern precision grinds this is less
interesting with new razors than it might be with OLD steel
and OLD grinds.

Schick, BiC, Gillette and many others commonly multi bevel their blades.
They do this because they can apply the inexpensive grinders to
shape the bulk of the edge and use the expensive ultra fine tricks on
the smallest amount of steel possible while running the continuous
band of steel through the machine at a constant speed. Their coatings
including Teflon minimize the drag from the uneven rough grind.
There is a lot of cost analysis and science behind the good blades
and too much marketing and market hype. Too often cost
wins over smoothness and quality.

wow... lots of great stuff!

FYI... almost all of my woodworking tools are chisel edges, flat ground all the way to the edge... more aggressive cutting and easy to sharpen. I also do my 'bushcrafting' knives that way. More edge chipping, but easy to sharpen in the woods. Axes are almost always convex ground... as you say.. to minimize chipping and maximize chopping.

Anyway... Great! this reduces the complication for me then...no secondary bevel.

You mention warping... there is no warping from heat treatment. What you are seeing is curvature which is something that I wanted to bring up in the maker's forum. After reading a lot of these comment though, I may have the answer. I'm using my machine to grind all the way to the final, as I say.. wire edge... and I'm getting an erosion of the steel in the middle as I always tend to put more pressure in that area and let up before I get to the tip. So it looks like I should use the machine to bring it down to something that has more thickness, then use stones to get the edge to sharpness. Does that sound right?

Hmmm... yes... it makes sense to keep the grind up to the spine even since the spine will be the 'guide'...

ha! you thought I gave up. I promise pictures tomorrow, but, like I said... I ground the blade of my first attempt into a tang and the tang into a new razor. This time I hollow ground on my 8" wheel to a scribed center line (I have a surface plate and a digital height gauge/scribe). Also I stopped grinding at about .5 mm of edge. I then quenched and tempered and went to my big oil stone. Starting on the coarse side I began drawing the blade flat against the stone trying to 'true-up' the spine and the edge. I did this for quite a long time until I had a 'sharp' edge. Basically this started flattening out my hollow grind... which looks like crap, but at least my spine is now a good guide for honing. Then I went to the fine side and then to 800 water stone then to 1000 water stone. I took it to the bathroom and shaved my entire face with one cut next to my ear. Now I wouldn't say this was the closest or most comfortable, but it was like using a disposable razor, say... for a third shave. And I got my chin and mustache whiskers without much of a problem. I expect to have my Norton 4000/8000 by friday... so I'm thinking I will have a butt ugly, but serviceable razor.

I may now switch this to the maker's forum because I now have a whole new suite of questions...