Thread: honing info for a newbie...

All of those strokes can acheive a sharp edge and I think all of those strokes can also create a curve in the center. The method of fixing that is in the book too. Most of the discussions here aren't really based on some rules of what will work and what won't but on our ideas of what is best. I think the keys to honing are laying the blade flat, using a light touch, and honing each side equally. After that its all just a crap shoot and most of it is immaterial.

the straight push is working for me. the razor i'm trying to get up to snuff is coming along nicely, getting a little closer each time to the shave-ready i'm using for comparison. thanks for all the advice.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Really good thread though huh? OK, so I'm at a little loss myself. I'm a huge proponent of the X pattern, HUGE. I don't see why a straight push wouldn't work, atleast initially too. And its connection to the pyramid? MMMMMMM, total loss. But, you've also got me lost on why you can't angle the scratch pattern with a straight push (say heal leading).

Joe- I assume your referring to a perpendicular straight stroke? I want to, very carefully and respectfully, query your point that "the straight stroke has been used by Germans since wide stones were available". Seems like a slightly broad reference. What is the source for that idea and when did broad stones become available or maybe a better question is; when were they not available? BTW...saying that Germans do things is hardly validation for its intelligence (sorry...I had to take that shot too). I have come across some references that German razor manufacturing companies used a straight perpendicular stroke to hone razors but also thought it was too expensive to "finish" the honing. In the videos I've seen a straight stroke being used as well with fingers all over the blade so I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that they were simply beveling the edge (I think it was in the TI factory). I'm not disputing your point, all those methods you mentioned do work, I'm just not clear on what Germans your referring to (a German Internet site?, all Germans?, a German razor factory?).

Guys...lets keep it light, its only shaving... but a great conversation piece too huh?

Oh, and I think I just got pulled into a thread drift. When the pyramid fails, I do it again. Keep in mind I don't "finish" using a pyramid. It only gets me close to the edge I want, then I use an ultra light touch (using an X pattern) to finish the edge to my satisfaction.

Also, I hone about every 15 shaves. Depends on the razor, but I don't keep track.

The only reason I mentoned the Germans is that the straight push is very popular, perhaps predominant on their sites. It was not to vouch for the approach but just to indicate that it works.

I only get upset when we seem to be misleading our readers. If I were discussing this with Nenand, I'd say "Yeah, right!" and some smart remark. But those kinds of statements seem to overlook the fact that we have a lot of people looking to us for advice and a responsibility not to mislead them. When we post, we're posting for a lot of them. Saying that the push doesn't work could discourage someone from trying a very good technique that could be the one that works for them.

Do you do a full hone session every 15 shaves? I'm talking about a refresh (under 5 strokes) every 5 or so shaves. when the razor just starts to pull after stroppng. The time between full hones is indefinite. If you mean just refreshing, then we're doing the same thing. You're just tolerating a little more pull before you act.

Yes, just 5-6 laps on a barber hone usually does it. I think the interval depends on the type of steel some. Back when I used a DE often I preferred a slightly duller edge which is why I probably don't mind waiting a little, as long as its stainless. For carbon razors its been about 10 shaves. I often grow a goatee during the work week for a couple of days to make the morning shave go faster and as you probably know the non-goatee area is a really easy shave, and that extends blade life too. Sometimes I shave at night before work and that seems to help too, why I'm not sure; more soak time maybe.

I used to need to hone more often but I found with better stropping (more pressure) and perfect technique, combined with judicious use of the linen side mixed with the leather side that the edge life lasted quite a bit longer. I never used the linen side until Papabull recommended it to me. I added this pressure only after it started to pull. The strop is a big part of the equation too, I believe.

I do a full honing session once, after purchase. I'll run it one pass on a 4k though if I overhone it, which hasn't happened in a while. After that just updates/refreshing. I suspect an update will include a 4K pass on occasion, but I haven't done that yet.

I have found a few references on the instructions for my barber hones which indicate that a straight push is just fine. I used it last night to update my current razor and it worked very nicely.

Your right . . . its hard for any of us to know what doesn't work . . .

Originally Posted by Popeye

After reading this thread I am starting to wonder? I have been using the X and after reading the 1961 Barbers Text. They are saying to use the X to create a smile in the blade. Something to the effect and not the exact words. A flat blade will cause discomfort to the customer causing the blade to drag, the heel and toe shood be above the middle of the blade. This is achieved by proper honing technique then they show diagrams of the X pattern with heel leading slightly.
But the Swaty directions I have show a straight stroke with the heel leading?
I have been doing the X with the heel slightly leading.

If you read that text carefully, the edge it talks about that as bad is the frown, not the straight edge. Taken as a whole the text tells you to form a smile as a precaution against a frown. In fact, the smile is described as being only for the experienced barber, and it continues to recommend the straight edge of the previous section for the novice.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

All of those strokes can acheive a sharp edge and I think all of those strokes can also create a curve in the center.

True, but in order to achieve an extreme smile you need to be able to move the edge in a non-planar fashion, as has been correctly pointed out. But what wasn't pointed out is why you would want an edge that looks like a scimitar.

The barber manual speaks in terms of a slight taper, not necessarily a curve. In fact the method it describes gives you a tapered edge that only loks curved. You can get both of those with virtually any method of honing, but getting a scimitar edge that's even won't work with any of them. It requires a special motion or comples pressure control with the x-pattern and a lot of skill.

The bottom line is that a straight edge is fine, and only a frown is to be avoided. Most razors come with the straight edge and maintaining them that way will produce great shaves. I'm not sure you would notice much of a difference if you switched them over to a smile. On the other hand, some razors, like my Filly and a lot of old English ones were intended to have a smile. From the curve (smile) of the spine, I would say they probably came that way. It's a good idea to keep them the way they were intended to be.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I do a full honing session once, after purchase. I'll run it one pass on a 4k though if I overhone it, which hasn't happened in a while. After that just updates/refreshing. I suspect an update will include a 4K pass on occasion, but I haven't done that yet.

What you describe is essentially what I do. The time between refreshings will depend aon many factors, including the type of beard you have and, as you point out, the style in which you keep it.

From what I've read, most guys eventually fall into the type of pattern we use. It was very popular in the days when str8s ruled. And many men, and even barbers, sent their razors to a service when real honing was needed.

Since it's a hobby, I look forward to the honing work, and sometimes I need to restrain myself to keep from honing a razor that's fine and doesn't really need it. My experience has been that razors are rarely improved that way, except for a slight refresh.

Originally Posted by cyrano138

what about a swaty? i've got one of those on the way.

The hone I finished your shave-ready razor was a Honemaster from Tilly. I have been told that it is a finer grit than the 8K Norton. As for the Swaty's they were very popular, but be aware that there are some variance in the grits of different brands. I have found that one side may be better than the other.

Glen

shows what i know. i thought 'swaty' was the brand.

Swaty IS the brand name. It was invented by Franz Swaty, from Maribor, ex Yugoslavia, in the beginning of the last century. There are different Swaty hones, "two" and "three lines" ones, and I think that describes the grit difference...

Nenad