What are we coming to or I don't believe it!

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Originally Posted by crouton976

Gugi, Spendur, I'm unsure if your two previous comments are directed at me. If not, then disregard this post.

If they are, I would only say that the idea of a person being able to decide for themselves what say they have about living their life as they see fit is nothing new, nor is it irrational. It's what this country's founders believed in, and what centuries of civilization have always believed in.

From religion to nature, it is a principle which is evident over and over.

The use of force, unless in self defense, is wrong. Under penalty of law, one I do not and never will agree with, I'm forced year after year to pay into a system that I shall never see give me a return on my investment. I pay into this system through income tax, property tax, sales tax, ad valorem tax, etc.

Mostly, I have little control, under the current set of laws I'm coerced into following, of how much tax I'll pay.

Do I think that we should be completely on our own, as you have pointed out, Nelson? Not completely, no, but mostly, at least at a Federal level.

Our Constituion was designed in such a way to allow for a minimal Federal Government and let the States take up the demand for further governance.

We could not be further from this original design.

I might as well be robbed at gunpoint. Between my wife and myself, we bring in approximately $75k per year, before taxes. In effect, that means we really have closer to $50k to spend.

Are we in as bad of shape as some? No, we're not. But, we're not well off either.

Given the choices in front of me, I'd rather be in the 1840's. I've proven time and again that I can rely on myself a lot more than I can on my government.

That's not ideology. That's proven history.

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Your 75K goes a lot father today because unlike the 1840's - electricity is cheap, gas is cheap, roads are cheap, policing is cheap, because medical research is subsidized, gas is subsidized, education is subsidized... etc., etc...

You are right its not ideology - its complete and utter ignorance of history :).

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Originally Posted by earcutter

Your 75K goes a lot father today because unlike the 1840's - electricity is cheap, gas is cheap, roads are cheap, policing is cheap, because medical research is subsidized, gas is subsidized, education is subsidized... etc., etc...

You are right its not ideology - its complete and utter ignorance of history :).

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And on that note, I'm removing myself from this conversation before I say something I'll regret.

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Originally Posted by crouton976

And on that note, I'm removing myself from this conversation before I say something I'll regret.

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I am not trying to upset you crouton - but seriously... look at the indexes. The standard of living rates, life expectancy etc, etc have all gone up, up, up since the 1840's.

Moreover the last time I checked this was still a democracy so claiming that you have no influence on your taxes is... heck! If you don't like voting - give to lobby groups! Look at how powerful the NRA is!

I didn't say I had no influence. I said I have very little influence.

The progression of our technologies is the main driver of what has driven prices down.

Subsidizing wealth is an inferior form of economic stabilization. It's also no way to run a country. If it is, I think we'd still have the U.S.S.R around to prove me wrong.

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Originally Posted by crouton976

I didn't say I had no influence. I said I have very little influence.

The progression of our technologies is the main driver of what has driven prices down.

Subsidizing wealth is an inferior form of economic stabilization. It's also no way to run a country. If it is, I think we'd still have the U.S.S.R around to prove me wrong.

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Seriously - I am not trying to irritate you but do you not understand the difference between communist Russia that told people what and how many widgets to build vs America that does not BUT might make sure that no one is doing things that cause citizens to become injured?

I mean wow man... Today's America and communist Russia are such different economic systems that you even put them in the same sentence is ludicrous!

Every not-for-profit in America is subsidized. Including churches, child care agency's, etc, etc, What's wrong with that?

The road we seem to be headed down indicates to me that we may not be far off from communist Russia.

What I'm trying to say is that a free market economy will always trump a socialized one. It is better balanced and more efficient.

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Originally Posted by crouton976

The road we seem to be headed down indicates to me that we may not be far off from communist Russia.

What I'm trying to say is that a free market economy will always trump a socialized one. It is better balanced and more efficient.

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Perhaps - but no regulations has been proven to be an absolute nightmare for working people - people like you. History shows that to be true from the industrial revolution all the way to the 50's and 60's.

The government is tasked to help and protect its citizens.

Everything is wrong with that IF it is not voluntary.

I should never, and I mean never, be forced to pay into a system by means of force. Our Constituion limits exactly what taxes, and therefore subsidies, the federal government can be involved in. Beyond that, the States are supposed to fill the gaps, allowing us the opportunity to move to a state we feel is more in line with our own views.

What our system has become is so far off base from that it's not funny.

Don't think bad of me Crouton,,,I own an AK. :w