Thread: What are we coming to or I don't believe it!

I have to start by telling a story. When I was first living with my wife, I was working UNION Construction. With that comes the layoff at the completion of the job. When my mother-in-law found out that I would no longer have a job, she proceeded to talk with my former employer about finding me something to do for them, In short she went asking for my job back. I never did get to work for that employer again. I personally had nothing to do with what she did and wouldn't have because it was fishing season. I have no idea what she was thinking.

As for lazy kids these days, I do not see what the problem is. Why would anyone wish to try to produce for an employer that cares more about their profits and shareholders then it does for their employees. I have a good friend who has worked for a large chain company. in her 4 years of employment she has gone from 8 dollars and hour to just about 12. they provide no benefits for her, and keep her below 32 hours a week for that very reason. she has had to pick up a second job just to make ends meet, and she considers herself lucky. She is also collage educated.

As for the problem, this was started by my parents. the Hippies for the 60's did the same thing until their mommy and daddy cut them off. Most decided to take the easy road and took what was offered to them instead of standing up for what was right.

For progress and the addition of Machines that do our work for us and the need to use Capital to do it, I disagree. Americas greats asset is still its people and big business knows and is afraid of this. So they throw us a bone ever now and then to make us feel better. I can prove this theory. lets take three piles. one pile we have money. one pile we have man. and the last pile will be material. now we combine two and we will start with material and money, what gets done? nothing. next we pile money and man, what gets done.nothing. now we combine man and material, what gets done...the list is endless. The whole of capital is B.S and america needs to figure that out.

Originally Posted by scotishcavalir

As for lazy kids these days, I do not see what the problem is. Why would anyone wish to try to produce for an employer that cares more about their profits and shareholders then it does for their employees. I have a good friend who has worked for a large chain company. in her 4 years of employment she has gone from 8 dollars and hour to just about 12. they provide no benefits for her, and keep her below 32 hours a week for that very reason. she has had to pick up a second job just to make ends meet, and she considers herself lucky. She is also collage educated.

I agree with this. If you expect loyalty and working ethics, the company should lead by example.
I once worked as a contractor for a high tech telecom manufacturer who made lasers. They rode the telecom bubble and made some bad decisions (because the sky was the limit). First they let most of the contractors go (I was an exception). Then they cut the new hires. Fair enough. And while benefits are cut and people fired, the CEO awarded himself a 120 million$ bonus for screwing over the company, and proposed that the entire board got a hefty bonus as well so they wouldn't balk at his.


So tell me. Does that inspire trust? Is that an example of ethics?
No. It shows us middle class people exactly what we can expect, and working hard and making overtime gets you just a pat on the back before they throw you overboard along with the rest before they give themselves another bonus.


My boss otoh was a different man. I worked for a small engineering corp, and while the pay wasn't great, we had trust and freedom to do our job the way we thought it needed to be done. We worked at home whenever we needed to be home, we worked weekends when it needed done, we did a lot of unpaid overtime. Because while we did 50 hours per week, he did 80. And he didn't suck the profit out of the company but gave us a bonus instead if the year was profitable. And while we often goofed off on friday afternoon, those were often the times when we came up with our best ideas. Our boss never counted the hours we made or kept check. He just minded that the work got done. And as a result, it got done.

Originally Posted by scotishcavalir

For progress and the addition of Machines that do our work for us and the need to use Capital to do it, I disagree. Americas greats asset is still its people and big business knows and is afraid of this.

US, or any other country for that matter, has no monopoly on smart/hard working people. Believe me, I've been around the world, have friends with diverse origins and backgrounds, in fact this whole outsourcing thing proves that americans are not special at all.

Your 'proof' is a flawed - you are presenting a cartoon with no bearing to reality. You need capital, you need labor, you need materials. And if you look at the amount of each it takes to complete something you will see the trend that I described. The industrial output of US hasn't changed since the 1950s - the only difference is that now it takes far less labor to make it. And supply and demand says that when you need less of something when the supply of it is the same or more (the US population, as well as the availability of foreign labor has increased) you get to pay less for it.
Modern economies are characterized with an increasing fraction of 'services' - now think how essential various services are and what things would you cut if you need to live within a smaller budget.

The thing is that morality/ethics and legality are two different things and sometimes things that are not ethical could be highly profitable in the short term. You can see it in our little hobby - there are certain vendors who peddle junk at exorbitant prices - they misrepresent, mislead and outright lie and make more money in a month than you make in a year. But there is nothing illegal about it.
In fact if you look at the US law this is something to be expected. You are allowed to have legal entities with the social benefits of people but without the social responsibilities. This is simply asking for it.

Originally Posted by gugi

The thing is that morality/ethics and legality are two different things and sometimes things that are not ethical could be highly profitable in the short term. You can see it in our little hobby - there are certain vendors who peddle junk at exorbitant prices - they misrepresent, mislead and outright lie and make more money in a month than you make in a year. But there is nothing illegal about it.

Technically it is illegal, but the thing is that everything they 'sell' you is a matter of opinion, and not quantifiable in an easy manner.
shaveready is such a property. People pay for it, and yet there is no way short of using a SEM to quantify it.

Robin once tested this. Post a couple of razors in the classifieds for way too much money, spend some time in the chat raving about how good they are, and next thing they're sold. Otoh, if you post the same razors for sale and describe them honestly and accurately, leaving out nothing, you get a lot less.

It was written: ..reporting instances of the parent(s) of some twentysomes were calling their childs' bosses to complain about their child not getting a raise or promotion!!

I would hope that a normal 20 year old could manage his own employment affairs.

I have an slightly autistic kid. He does not want me to help him find work, but also is not currently capable of making the personal contacts necessary to secure a job one his own even at 20 years old. He can and does work though.

I walked up behind him once when he was filling out an application. He was going to leave his work experience blank!!! He did not think his work experience counted.... uuuug.

Originally Posted by scotishcavalir

As for the problem, this was started by my parents. the Hippies for the 60's did the same thing until their mommy and daddy cut them off. Most decided to take the easy road and took what was offered to them instead of standing up for what was right.

For progress and the addition of Machines that do our work for us and the need to use Capital to do it, I disagree. Americas greats asset is still its people and big business knows and is afraid of this. So they throw us a bone ever now and then to make us feel better. I can prove this theory. lets take three piles. one pile we have money. one pile we have man. and the last pile will be material. now we combine two and we will start with material and money, what gets done? nothing. next we pile money and man, what gets done.nothing. now we combine man and material, what gets done...the list is endless. The whole of capital is B.S and america needs to figure that out.

I would take exception to only these two items. Firstly, I began working at 15 during the 60s part time while in High School subsequently quitting High School with an almost Grade 10 level education for a permanent job. I worked 35 years for the same employer and walked the picket line numerous times in that period. The employer never offered anything/threw a bone they could not afford to give and sometimes that was after a 6 month or 3 month long strike. That happened in good booming economic times so some of us hippies tried to stand up. Looking back it is easy for me to see the increasingly steep and slippery slope that has lead to where we are today and the end to the deterioration is not in sight yet.

The second item I would take exception with has been answered by Gugi in his reply and in much better form than I could respond with.

Bob

Originally Posted by scotishcavalir

As for lazy kids these days, I do not see what the problem is. Why would anyone wish to try to produce for an employer that cares more about their profits and shareholders then it does for their employees. I have a good friend who has worked for a large chain company. in her 4 years of employment she has gone from 8 dollars and hour to just about 12. they provide no benefits for her, and keep her below 32 hours a week for that very reason. she has had to pick up a second job just to make ends meet, and she considers herself lucky. She is also collage educated.

Because when there is no profits, there are no shareholders. When there are no shareholders, there are no businesses. And when there are no businesses, there are no jobs. As a person that works, I keep my work with the company I work for on a business relationship. I understand that if the company fails and does poorly, my services will no longer be needed. On the other hand, because of the self serving nature of BOTH the business and myself, I offer no loyalty to the business. If I find a better job or circumstances that I prefer, I move on.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

Because when there is no profits, there are no shareholders. When there are no shareholders, there are no businesses. And when there are no businesses, there are no jobs. As a person that works, I keep my work with the company I work for on a business relationship. I understand that if the company fails and does poorly, my services will no longer be needed. On the other hand, because of the self serving nature of BOTH the business and myself, I offer no loyalty to the business. If I find a better job or circumstances that I prefer, I move on.

The problem is in many circumstances the corporation is rich beyond avarice and all those profits go to the top employees (meaning officers) and investors and when it comes to the employees they get dirt. Why? because the employees are at the mercy of the company. Exactly what happened long ago and gave rise to the Union mvmt.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The problem is in many circumstances the corporation is rich beyond avarice and all those profits go to the top employees (meaning officers) and investors and when it comes to the employees they get dirt. Why? because the employees are at the mercy of the company. Exactly what happened long ago and gave rise to the Union mvmt.

There is a problem in Canada right now in that many companies are sitting on capital and are just not investing any of it in new hires or capital expansion projects, at least not in Canada anyway. They still get better tax breaks than I do regardless of not generating any new employment here. To be sure corporate executives are being well remunerated but the employees are still looking over their shoulders trying to figure where the next cuts to their wages, benefits or pension are going to happen. Unions are so weak right now that they have little positive impact in the process.

Bob

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The problem is in many circumstances the corporation is rich beyond avarice and all those profits go to the top employees (meaning officers) and investors and when it comes to the employees they get dirt. Why? because the employees are at the mercy of the company. Exactly what happened long ago and gave rise to the Union mvmt.

Well, yeah. The profits go to those that risked their money by investing in the company. That was the deal they signed up for when they invested their money. When the employees took the job there, their pay was what they signed up for. There's room in that model to share profits with the employees as well, but that is an individual business decision not a right on behalf of the employees. Want to know why big business takes its operations offshore? Because of this kind of thinking and action. At the end of the day, business has choices. If the circumstances become such that profits can be significantly better by going offshore, they will. Now you're probably thinking Im some guy high up on the corporate ladder that is looking down at the working people with disdain. I'm not. I'm just like everyone else dragging my butt to work every day (or working from home). I just understand that my company exists to make profits not to ensure I'm happy. And you might be thinking that I believe that there should be NO restrictions on business either. But that is also not true. But there's a difference between having SOME regulations and saying that they owe their employees x amount of profits and benefits. To restrict profits is to restrict investment. Now that union movement is run by radicals who would like to bring capitalism and our free society to a grinding halt. They continue to tax the system in the hopes that they will break it and force a socialist change in our country.