Thread: The Ukraine situation

I am going to go along with what Bruno said, as a matter of fact I will go one step further. If we look at what Vladmir has done in recent years we will notice that he is almost done putting the bulk of the old Soviet Republic back together either thru economic strangleholds or military intervention.

Just for kicks, as soon as Vlad feels comfortable I would put money that Aberdijan is next thing on the shopping list. Oil and gold fields.

Yesterday evening on the news they called him Tzar Putin. And that is remarkable because Belgian news usually makes a big effort to only report fact and not present opinions or judgement calls. I feel that we are now approaching the point where using jokes or 'nod nod wink wink' to come to terms with the fact that Putin is indeed only paying lip service to parliament or the democratic process and acting like a supreme ruler. He is rebuilding the old soviet empire, but without the crutch of state controlled communism.

This is also imo why western disarmament is a bad idea. Not that I think war is a good idea, but if only one side has a big army, the other side has forever to rely on the armed side playing nice.

Unless you want war, as in the US vs Russia then the first move has to come from the EU, the US might back that move, but the first Economic move must be from the EU...
Money talks and the 1/2 Trillion in trade that the EU does with Russia is a much bigger economic stick then the $38 Billion that the US does.. Besides the internal political strife, and economic woes that US has right now.

On the thought of war, Obama doesn't seem to understand that having the Sec Defense announcing we are downsizing the Military and making drastic cuts to the Defense budget last week, kinda makes his BS sabre rattling pretty much a joke this week ..

That being said I am not so sure that Putin is all so wrong in his actions, my understanding is that over 60% of Ukraine is tied to Russia, Putin made his intentions quite clear when it came to the Crimea, he said what would happen and obviously his idea of drawing a "Red line" has teeth and 16k Russian troops to back it up...

Perhaps the solution is simple, let the half of Ukraine that wants to side with the EU do so and become West Ukraine and the half that wants to side with Russia do so and become East Ukraine...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Perhaps the solution is simple, let the half of Ukraine that wants to side with the EU do so and become West Ukraine and the half that wants to side with Russia do so and become East Ukraine...

I get the distinct feeling,that's what's gonna happen.

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Why cannot the U.S keep our nose out of this crap?
Kerry is going to Kiev,is talk of a U.S military response,thats just wonderfull,just what we need

You could most certainly stay out of it, but the cost is that you openly admit that all the big talking about freedom, democracy and such americans are so found of is a big hypocrisy. Can you live with that?

The Crimea peninsula became Ukrainian territory only 60 years ago. Before that it became Russian pretty much the same way most of America became USA - the foreigners with the guns exiled the native population from its lands.

This is mostly about Russian internal politics - with poor economy, authoritarian regime, and lack of freedoms Putin has only one thing to sell to the Russians - the glory of a Russian empire. You know, you may be poor and oppressed, but you are part of a great country that can throw its weight around, so you feel a little better about yourself. It certainly beats only being poor and oppressed. It seems to be universal human quality, too - just look around.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Perhaps the solution is simple, let the half of Ukraine that wants to side with the EU do so and become West Ukraine and the half that wants to side with Russia do so and become East Ukraine...

Since things tend to look different when its your own country - it is just as simple as having Texas, Oklahoma, and the other red states become South USA and the blue states can become northeast&west USA. After all they seem to have opposing political ideals.

There are several things that make the current crisis even more scary as most could imagine.

Ukraine is not some far away undeveloped country far away. It is almost in the middle of Europe. People are well educated and this time they just got enough of their corrupted leaders. Social media had a big role with this current Euromaidan uprising.
Now little man Putin is surely aware that the same might happen in Belarus or even Russia. People ain't stupid there either. The current crisis will hit the everyman Russian hard.
So this might be little Vladimirs last change to show his muscles. He so hard wanted to build Eurasian Union. Along with Ukraine heading for EU Putin has witnessed his dream fall into oblivion. It's all or nothing for him.

But it's just not Ukraine. Russia has now forces mobilized on most European countries bordering Russia, icluding my country. Most armies are now on alert, watching closely, trying not to get provoked. Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland has called Nato negotiations, based on 4th article.

Most if not all people living at these corners of the world are deeply concerned what happens if the crisis is to escalate the worst possible way. Guess that people here are well aware what it means to have war on your own soil. It's whole different world than being on commission on some distant place of the world.

We have some personal issues with this too. Most folks here know personally people from Ukraine. We have few family friends who used to live here but moved back to their country back 10 years ago to be with the Euromaidan. For the last few weeks my wifes been almost shocked after reading news and watching those dramatic stories from Kyev uprising.
As someone who works in the military i know what recently is going on here too. People i serve with, mostly boys and girls of 20 yo or so are deeply worried. Nobody wants to believe the worst but ready to take what is coming.
Personally i do not believe in the worst scenario, but if it's Ukraine today then what after that?

Originally Posted by gugi

Since things tend to look different when its your own country - it is just as simple as having Texas, Oklahoma, and the other red states become South USA and the blue states can become northeast&west USA. After all they seem to have opposing political ideals.

Yes, many of us are good with those ideas, in fact it would not be a huge surprise to see just that in the not so distant future... When one's central government no longer represents the entire populace then perhaps it is easier to just change...

There are quite a few states that are talking about North/South or East/ West splits...

One that comes to mind is my neighbor to the West, WA state, the huge divide between the Coast, and the rest of the state has the two very different populations at odds...
Most of WA state is by area a rural life style, but the population centers along the coast have the votes and swing the state, so yes it would not surprise me at all to see more then 50 states in my lifetime

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Perhaps the solution is simple, let the half of Ukraine that wants to side with the EU do so and become West Ukraine and the half that wants to side with Russia do so and become East Ukraine...

Do not believe everything you see from the news.
Only a small minority of all Ukraines wants their home country to split. Federal has a support. Currently there are some protesters and gunmen controlling Crimea. They have made clear to majority that supports Maidan that they better stay indoors and shut up.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Unless you want war, as in the US vs Russia then the first move has to come from the EU, the US might back that move, but the first Economic move must be from the EU...
Money talks and the 1/2 Trillion in trade that the EU does with Russia is a much bigger economic stick then the $38 Billion that the US does.. Besides the internal political strife, and economic woes that US has right now.

We've had an exceptionally soft winter this year, and it looks like spring is already beginning in earnest. However, Russia has got us by the nads through the gas pipeline that is feeding natural gas to most of Western Europe. If they pinch the pipe, we're in a lot of trouble. Trade sanctions will hurt them eventually, but having no gas will hurt us right now

Originally Posted by gssixgun

On the thought of war, Obama doesn't seem to understand that having the Sec Defense announcing we are downsizing the Military and making drastic cuts to the Defense budget last week, kinda makes his BS sabre rattling pretty much a joke this week ..

Meh. The US army is still bigger than that of the next n countries combined. Let's be honest. The US could downsize quite a bit without losing much if any capabilities as long as no global war breaks out.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

That being said I am not so sure that Putin is all so wrong in his actions, my understanding is that over 60% of Ukraine is tied to Russia, Putin made his intentions quite clear when it came to the Crimea, he said what would happen and obviously his idea of drawing a "Red line" has teeth and 16k Russian troops to back it up...

Perhaps the solution is simple, let the half of Ukraine that wants to side with the EU do so and become West Ukraine and the half that wants to side with Russia do so and become East Ukraine...

The russian naval bases are right there at crimea. Putin is not going to give up a centimetre of influence. This is a civil war waiting to happen, and unless they split the country or come up with a government that is acceptable to all major parties, there will be conflict.