Printable View
That's assuming they don't have transferable skills... and that another industry doesn't take its place.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
Recall too - every military personnel is already paid by us lol! Paying them less may actually put us in the black lol!!
Exactly, that seems to always be forgotten when the 'jobs' argument is brought up. It is the same argument for stimulating the economy, but that tends to be dismissed with the 'can not spend your way out of debt'.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
It is definitely much cheaper to pay people welfare money than the high cost of skilled jobs making high-tech but unnecessary military equipment. In fact the standard economic argument would be that they should be paid nothing as to provide the greatest incentive for getting off their bottoms and putting their skills into production of something that is better for the society.
In fact these days the argument is made often but for a different socio-economic segment.
The base will always be there,is the one largest drone bases in the U.S,The military personal will be re-located so they will still be paid.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
Transferable skills?? thats a hoot,This area is rural farmland with one of the highest unemployment rates in the country.
I'd normally not engage in political dialogue in a shaving forum, but .. the problem with the US now is that the TeeVee has conditioned us to want more stuff. Why should a family with no skills other than eating and defecating deserve a widescreen TV? Or any TeeVee at all? Because Sam Walton says so, no matter that his ChinaMart has run small businesses out of most towns (as well as those jobs), as long as the average low wage joe has a TeeVee and a cheesy beer, and a CrapDonalds on every corner, he's happy
Now, if you divided the Clinton family fortune into all of, say, Arkansas or New York, I am never sure where they are from, every body gets about Three Bucks.
Don't get me started lol!! I have been too active on this thread as it is lol!! But yeah... Take all the passion out and the name calling, and welfare has its place!Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
I find in America, people would rather pay more police and create a police state than simply pay out more welfare and deture those who have nothing from steeling. In pure dollars - as proven elsewhere, it works.
But that's a bit advanced for this thread lol! The list of assumptions would take pages lol!
That's how capitalism works brother!! Hence unemployment is a serious threat to capitalists! The problem is, many capitalists are greedy and don't want to share... And they have put a government in place to ensure tax rates are crazy low... Selling the masses on trickle down lol!!Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryG
They are too narrow minded to see that eventually, the unemployed problem will roust and kill it for all of us... Sigh.
OK I got to stop posting lol! Note, I love capitalism... LOVE IT, but greed is killing it. Well, outright greed and a bit of I don't care for my fellow citizens...
Hey David
Who ya calling a commie pinko? I am living in Kanuckistan after all eh.;):rofl2::beer1: Anyway, can't take politics and economics too seriously, damn all the average guy can do except try and wade through all the chest high BS that best they can.
Bob
Capitalism is great, for those that can capitalize from it.
I went to a Vietnam Vet fund raiser today,I donated what little I could,saddens me that there are over 200K nam vets that are homeless and living on the streets of our great capitalistic country.
Read the book (the communistic societys of the united states) Quakers,Mennonites,Mormans,amish all practice pure communism,nobody starves.
This country and future administrations need to focus more on the american people,not some illitrate goat herder in Iraq.
Call me a COMMIE:) I am, I help those who need help as best I can,Ihave no Money to give you, but I can give you vegitables from my garden.
I sit here and read all of these ideas and comments only making it easier to believe that there's something seriously wrong going on in the US.
The Courts now saying that corporations and lobbying groups not only have the same rights as an individual but even have more rights because they have more money.
If our kids acted in school the same way our elected leaders do in government they'd be expelled for Bulling.
Our internet and communications are some of the worst in the world just because our government lets them make exorbitant profits without putting anything back into the systems.
We have 100 yr old water and sewer systems while we send money to countries were at war with to improve there's.
We complained because Russia was going to punish Ukraine by raising Natural Gas rates to the level that I now pay in New York !!! Who's punishing us, more so who's looking out for us!
There's something going terribly wrong here.
Your post brings a tear to my eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnus
In response to the emboldened area of your post, note that the unions are all but busted. Lobby groups work for only those who pay them. That leaves government.
I fear the days where being complacent was a luctury afforded to the masses due to wealth and ignorance are well behind the majority... If they only cared to look.
The American Dream Is Dead - Business Insider
Though I absolutely abhor what these guys are demanding below... At least they tryed?? I love the verbiage :).
The Plan To “Take Back America” – Place ALL state and federal capitols under ‘Civil Disobedient’ Siege | America's Voice Now
Well, yeah but the thread did advance beyond the regular issue of 'Mr. Hussain-O's bashfest: 2014 week 18 edition' to some logical arguments of where the problems reside.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
Well if I were to take on the argument that some welfare isn't all bad and in the long-run could ease a great deal of burden and societal stress, then people will immediately jump to that segment of the population who will always mooch off we the people. Try telling folks that they have a place in society and will never go away but rather arm themselves, and we'll have a closed thread in no time.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Moreover, were I to get past that and the inevitable gun debate that will cause, I'll have to sell some on the humanity of the working poor and that they aren't the same class of bumbs as the aforementioned. AND I'll have to prove that its not just a certain race that contributes to that class.
If I got past that and the inevitable debate that these people aren't god fearing, maybe I could commence giving examples how it works in other nations... Which would be the death nail as every other rich country outside of America has embraced a bit of socialism which is just as good as being a... How did Bob put it, a pinko commie lol!!
Dude... That's allot of work!! The only person I have convinced in my lifetime to love a stranger was my wife lol!!!
It's OK, it's that communist canadian blood that you can't help ;)
They don't require the president to have been born in the U.S.of A. for nothing - look what happened the one time they let that slide :p
I am sure I have no idea what you mean lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Recall too, that a Canadian inside America really must like it here or he could leave lol!! :)
And when Obama controlled the House, Senate and the White house, what did he accomplish? Your "Right Wing" comment is rubbish IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
And Obama doesn't have a "bot army" who voted for free phones and fake healthcare too, right?
Frank
I think the second part of TARP, economic stimulus, Dodd-Frank, Obamacare, and the gasoline efficiency standards for motor vehicles are the biggest items.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakebound
The free Obamaphones is just poor information turned into propaganda for specific segment.
Sometimes you only get one chance to close a deal. Good for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
Yes, something is amiss for that to have happened. It's just plain unnatural yet refreshing. Have faith and just wait for it. ;):angel:Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Bob
That's a great point Frank. One my wife and I were discussing just this morning. We concluded that he was so green he actually thought he do it with consensus... Lol!! Which really shows what a rookie he was. He should have seen the writing on the wall when he couldn't get Guantanamo bay closed down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakebound
Heck even the NRA buying the vote shocked the man lol!!
Anyway, with any president, you have to account for personality. Assigning malice is dangerous when assessing any action or comment rationally.
I think he also may have wanted to be that post-partisan president of red-white-and-blue america from his candidate speeches. He completely dismantled the powerful propaganda machine he had for the campaign, which personally surprised me a lot, as people tend to not simply give up that sort of power.
He wasn't completely naive about politics because most of his significant appointments were from the old highly experienced pool with serious ties to Clinton.
It's also a lot of fun to dig the old threads from 2008 and see what people were posting back then and compare to how things happened :)
Keep in mind that Congress has no obligation to go along with anything the pres is trying to sell. Congress is the legislative branch and the pres has the obligation to work with them to get things done. If he can't, it may be more of a shortcoming on his behalf than theirs. They too were elected and their elections had consequences too. Each of them represent a group of Americans and those Americans may not agree with this pres. And just because he want to take on an issue and disrupt a sector of our lives and economy doesn't mean the rest of Congress owns what he was willing to throw in disarray for political purposes. In reality if the pres fails, HE doesn't own it, we do. When his stimulus failed to do anything (something the "typical right wing posturing" predicted) who owned the tab on that? We did. And if his health care experiment fails who will own that? We will. Considering all the harm they are good for, I want them doing as little for me as possible. I don't know that the right wing posturing helps but acquiescing to his whims is not a better choice in my opinion. Like every pres before him, he has to answer his critics. Administrations come and go, the electorate remains. They are more obligated to acquiesce to us tha we to them. They know that so they get you fighting about rich vs poor, race vs race, guns, abortion, religion, etc. all designed to distract you from recognizing how well you might be able to exist without them.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
Yeah... I don't know if that's such a good idea lol! That would really be a slap in my face... Wait!! I wasn't here then lol! Home free!! Woot.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
All said and done, I understand where the OPs concerns lay. Though in all honesty, I have to conclude that him keeping his mouth shut (Obama) wouldn't be what I want in these times. I am not even sure I would call his remarks heavy handed. I mean technically, we are still at war with N. Korea.
And when those workers made tanks that went up against German tanks and ships that went up against German and Japanese ships, or planes that went up against other planes, one of the two ships ended up on the ocean floor. A plane ended up sunk in the ocean or crashed and burned on dry land. Tank A destroys tank B. These assets are lost forever. Yes we put people to work but it was work that could ONLY exist during war, making assets that would end up on the bottom of the ocean is an example of a missed opportunity. It was necessary but not optimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
Yes the right still goes with the argument the stimulus was a failure however they are responsible for the stimulus not being large enough to do what it was supposed to have done. In the past it was Govt spending that initially got the U.S out of rough financial problems.
Does congress represent the people? Many would say they represent the monied interests that control them. Time and time again issues that are favored by the public have no chance with the Congress.
You mean his health care experiment that was originally a republican idea?
See you doubt it before it's fully inplemented. It's a success in Mass. and it will be in the U.S as a whole. So what is the right wing alternative???
Care to cite a reference for us? Where I work, we monitor the phone calls of our "residents". I stopped counting the number of family members on the streets that brag about how many "free Obama phones" (their words, not mine) that they have. Some of the phones have yet to be activated.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
So, while you may think that the free phones are "poor information" turned propaganda, you're paying for them with taxes that have been levied against you and against me in various ways to include surcharges on your cellular bill.
Frank
I was, but somebody else was faster than me. But here's how you could've gotten started on your own Let me google that for youQuote:
Originally Posted by Lakebound
It is always better to make statements based on facts than on speculation or random people's words. I have looked into those programs, their origin and their funding, but as far as I can tell you haven't. Take a look at the links in the previous post, they should help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakebound
I'll take my real world experience of actually listening to real phone calls over "snopes" anyday. I don't speculate about the conversations that I actually listen to. As to the "links", there are joke, it seems like those on the left always have their bookmarked talking points ready to go when someone challenges the welfare state and her subjects.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Makes no difference to me if people in this Country want to ignore what I have actually heard with my own ears. Google it, Snopes it, whatever you like. Bottom line is that there are "free phones" that the Federal Government is subsidizing whether you want to admit it or not.
Frank
Hey it's a free country. You can believe anything you want. I only thought you may like to know what the truth is, but that is not a requirement.
I answered your request for references, and would greatly appreciate if in the future you do not waste my time asking for information that you have already decided to dismiss without giving it any consideration. My time is valuable and you can waste it only so many times before I start ignoring you completely. I do not like to ignore people and would prefer they do not force me to.
Hey, don't try and convince people with the truth or evidence after all they have already believed the rumors or hype so why should they want to accept anything else.
No need to piss off the Admins here by disagreeing with them. I see that when you have a different opinion here other than one's only backed up by Snopes, the team comes out of the woodwork to engage in ad hominem and show of force. (I.E. You're entitled to your opinion, but only mine counts, et. al)
No problem boys, I see that this is your sandbox and I'm just a Guest here, I'll move away from the conversation now. I see this happening almost on every sub forum here on SRP. That's unfortunate too, Mr. Abrams is a class act and has been good to me and others who I have referred to SRD. I'll stick to buying razors and honing services from him but the one way "Admins are always right" BS isn't worth it.
Frank
Trying to paint yourself as some sort of victim here isn't going to work either. People disagree with me all the time, and I am more than happy to argue with logical arguments.
I was clear that your wasting my time what would lead me to ignore you. You explicitly asked me to provide you with references only to declare once they were provided that you actually have no use for them.
I told you you can disagree all you like, but that is at your own expense, the facts remain the facts. For example the program you are referring to was crated not by Obama but by another president which is now dead - Reagan. The bills were passed just like any other bill in congress and signed by the sitting president. Deny it as much as you wish the truth is not going to change.
You can not make your opinion count by simply wanting it to - your refusal to base it on facts is what invalidates it. I most certainly serve as administrator on this site, but that is completely irrelevant to the validity of your argument.
If you want to view and present yourself as a victim that is your own choice, but the only thing you are a victim of is your ignorance and refusal to correct that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakebound
Frank I am sorry you feel this way. Mods can have an opinion To no?? No one is ganging up on you because of your views. You don't honestly think you are the only one who feels this way or has said what you did on these forums before??
There are plenty of mods here who are VERY right leaning. The only issue at hand here is you insisting that we take your word for something that others have good evidence against. Don't get mad, find proof to support your opinion... which will turn opinion into something with legs.
You know how it is on the net Frank - people can say whatever they want, and do. You might very well may be right, but prove it. Its how gentleman banter. Everything else is hearsay. You know?
While the concept of an Obama phone is false in that HE did not provide any new services to people, the idea that it's not true in any respect is also false. The phones in question are provided by what is said to be a non profit organization called Universal Sevice. I work in the telecom industry and spent some time in the area of compliance. The money does come from telecom carriers but to say that their contributions are voluntary would be a flat out lie. USF was set up by the Federal govt and act on its behalf. Paying into these funds is nothing more than a tax and failing to do so bring on all the same problems of not paying taxes. I worked at companies that were exempt and others that were not. This is not the doing of Obama but it IS the doing of govt.
Wait so the "Obama phones" were set up by Regan? How did Obama's name get attached to the project?
That's the propaganda part. When Reagan signed the original program into law there were no cell phones (at least not in the current form). One can look up the bills and their evolution and see how they happened, who voted for, who voted against...Quote:
Originally Posted by Christel
But that requires work and the results may not line up quite nicely with the ideologically convenient narrative of 'Obama is taking the hard-earned money from good hard-working americans to provide luxuries to the lazy bums'.
Obama, or Reagan , government does not give anything they did not first take (by threat ) from someone else who earned it to give to those who don't earn ,, just to clarify " just my opinion and many thousands of hard working Americans. Tc
The vast majority of hard working Americans get More from their government than they give too their government in terms of dollars and cents.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrideshd
A free market... with all the infrastructure needed to maintain it. Stability, with all the police and military to maintain that! Subsidized food, gas, electricity... The list is extensive and generally inconceivable!
You get good value for your tax dollars!
Its unfortunate that so many think they should get more - what's worse is those who want what they have, and that of others too, AND want to also deny others lol!
How does the Government provide a free market? The Government does not make anything. It takes from the people via taxes and distributes it as it sees fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
Frank
Ok there is really no such thing as a "free market." There never will be... or could be. Lets just call it a market!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakebound
Does the government give us the market - well no. We provide the market and the government. They have to go hand in hand. But if you want to get into a "big thoughts" debate lol...
Without us producing a government, we couldn't regulate a market. Is it possible to have a "free" market without regulation?? Short answer - no. Without government ensuring "perfect information" - there would be no market either. Hell, without government ensuring access for all to the market via roads, via data, via... there would be no market.
GOVERNMENT IS A FUNCTION OF CIVILIZATION!! A national market is civilized as is a global one. you benefit from this!!
If you want to trade with just those with whom you have access too - cool! I need access to people with more money than my friends lol!!
Finally Frank - I understand your frustration with how taxes are distributed, everyone is. But that's a democracy - democracy's discriminate. If you think they distribute as they see fit - you need to take a civics class lol! Sorry - but your perception and reality isn't the same thing.