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Govts do many things to provide a free market. Diplomacy, tariff laws, free trade agreements, go to war with oil rich countries, .... :)
Also Govts cannot just redistribute as they see fit, generally. There are laws and such. Also, the great thing about democracy is that if how you as a member of Govt "see fit" doesn't tally up with how your electorate "sees fit", well they just may not see fit to reelect you, if they can see fit to get off their arses and vote. :D
James.
We here in the US don't live in a democracy. We are supposed to be living in a Constitutional Republic.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
It seems to me that you're the one who would benefit from the civics class. (Lol).
Frank
You are trolling Frank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakebound
You want me to talk about the electoral college then?? Whatever - you split hairs lol. Give substance - or troll - you know, it's whatever lol.
Actually we live in a representative democracy.
There is an old saying about when folks don't want to think for themselves and put all their confidence in others. There is no shortage of folks who are more then glad to do the thinking for you. History is replete with people who cajoled the masses.
Anyway, despite this fascinating interlude into how people view their country's governmental structure (Australia is a pseudo - democratic idiocracy, in case you were wondering :D) I'm exercising my right to be lazy and not read the entire thread - someone want to fill me in on what it was about?
Or I could take the Simpson's DJ3000 approach and make a generic guess: "Those clowns in congress did it again. What a bunch of clowns!"
Am I close? :D
James.
Fixed it for you - :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Close James - but it really morphed into quite a conversation :). I know I had fun. You should read it :).
Wait a minute here. In post #80 you backpedaled and you accuse me of trolling? That's rich.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
Type what you mean and mean what you type. Government does not provide a free market. That's what you wrote and I am merely disagreeing with that statement. Furthermore, we do not live in a democracy as you claimed.
And when I disagree, you state that I'm trolling. I guess around here, disagreement is trolling. Whatever.
I suggest that you don't know what you are talking about or, you're engaging in some revisionism with regard to America's history.
Frank
That's the thing Frank, I do know what I am talking about. So much so, I make assumptions that most people who know what they are talking about make :). I make those assumptions because I don't expect someone to make me take three steps backwards on givens lol!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakebound
I didn't "backtrack" - I dumbed it down :).
I assume you are trolling not only because of your lack of thought when posting on this thread, but from your history here on the whole.
For example, the thread about natural hones - I put thought into my response to the OP, but you didn't like my response, no, no.... You claimed only that we here were treating the OP with disdain. Hence, I figure you're a troll!
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...al-stones.html
But if you are here to tell me I am wrong... Well color me embarrassed!! I beg your forgiveness!
I'd love to see a completely free market, I think it would be fascinating although I suspect the only place to see such a thing would be some sort of virtual simulation. No country has a free market - when it is administered by people, it's something of a naivety to assume that they wont meddle with it in one way or another.
"From your history here as a whole". What's that supposed to mean? You mean to tell me that you allow conversations from one thread bleed into another?Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
So this is personal for you. I get it.
Thanks for letting me know.
Frank
Earcutter! Are you STILL down here in the Conversation? :roflmao
Well if you must bring it up. I didn't get a refund all mine went to the government to. Distribute And maybe I don't feel they do anything for me But maybe they should And on another point I fought and bled for this country I think I have the right to complain about my money. And I repeat my money being wasted and thrown away for politicians personal agendas. Now I remove myself from this conversation because there are people in here that are Never mind. Tc
From one Veteran to another, thank you for your service.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrideshd
Frank
I just don't understand folks. All this talk about big Govt and then what it doesn't do and shouldn't do and should do.
I'm sure many would love to put the country in a time machine and take us back to...say...1860 way before income taxes and much of any govt at all when you could do what you wanted and had real freedom but wait if that happened just about everybody reading this wouldn't exist because their parents and grandparents would never have survived long enough to have kids of their own and even if some of our members were born they probably wouldn't have survived childhood.
Well I can tell you one thing for sure... Part of my tax money certainly wouldn't be going to fund veterans benefits lol!!Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
If we had smaller gov and were we back in the 1800s that is.
:)
Speaking of those pushing the small government agenda... The Koch Brothers and their Tea Party - I thought this was cute no matter what side of the debate you are on.
DON'T OPEN IN POLITE COMPANY
THE THEME SONG OF THE AMERICAN WORKER - "I'D LIKE TO BUY THE KOCHS A WORLD, THEY'RE THE EVIL THING" - YouTube
Yeah you could do pretty much anything you wanted, but (at least in this part of the country) you were lucky to have time for anything more than scratching in the dirt trying trying to raise enough crops to keep your family from starving and joining occasionally with the neighbors to fend off indian attacks hoping they didn't kill your family or burn you out.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
I guess government is good for something!
Since we're going back it time it may be also worth remembering that it was largely the government that ensured those white people could successfully take the land in the first place. Without the government the indians would've had a lot better chance against the newcomers.
Still, the economic engine back then was in the east and under pretty heavy government control from the get go (whiskey rebellion anybody).
This notion that USA is currently under some big oppressive government that would be anathema to the founders, this notion seems rather fictional to me. USA is a very, very young country and thus there are really good records of how things actually used to be. That is for anybody who is interested in the real history and would bother to read congress bills and newspapers from the old times, rather than simply swallow somebody else's propaganda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
+2Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
I'd like to take some of the whiny folks back to the 1860's and leave their sorry behinds to the real owners of the country. Or, they can emigrate to .. hmm, let's see, what country will accept such as them? Outer Slobovia?
Well with respect to the "saber rattling" as originally posted on, here is a great article on it:
Geopolitics: The decline of deterrence | The Economist
Ahh, I see.
Well, the way I view it is like you have to view everything else nowadays: as a market.
There's deterrence supply and demand. At the moment the American supply of deterrence does not seem to be in alignment with the world's demand for deterrence, thus things are out of equilibrium creating inefficiencies.
On the deterrence supply side there are of course costs of production. Cheapest production cost deterrent products are (in order of increasing cost) finger/jaw-wagging, diplomacy, economic sanction, thermonuclear war. Each of these products demands a price of course which is generally commensurate with the cost of production but can demand on other things too like demand for that product. At the moment for example jaw wagging is really cheap to produce but demand for it is low, so no one's buying.
James.
Interesting op-ed on "saber rattling" and Ukraine.
BBC News - Ukraine and Europe's Sleepwalkers
I think its pretty safe to say that everyone is a little bit more than concerned about Obama's not believing war produces sustainable outcomes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Splashone
Though I agree with him, and agree that history proves this to be true... I just don't know if the rest of the world sees it yet. Its as though he's the only adult on the stage playing the long-game while the kids test their boundaries.
Change is spooky... we are but a blip in time. Only history will tell.
America itself is proof that war produces sustainable outcomes. Unless of course you're not including that as part of history. But then again, Obama spent a great deal of time during his first term bemoaning what he called "American Exceptionalism". He went on a great apology tour after winning (being handed) the Nobel Peace prize.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
When I served in our military, we believed that America, Americans and the American military certainly were exceptional. I would suggest that if you were to visit Normandy, you might ask some of those who still live there what their opinion is.
As a Veteran, I didn't like war and I still don't. But acting like Obama who believes that all you have to do is "be nice" and your enemy will like or respect you is a fallacy. Putin is taking advantage of this Administation's weakness and the weakness starts from the top down. That's why the President is called the Commander in Chief. That isn't a title that you get to put up on the shelf when things go wrong. You lead from the front with boldness and confidence born of strength. Like it or not, offensive to your sophomoric ears or not, peace is achieved through superior firepower and not through kowtowing to dictators.
There is no politically correct way to kill your enemy. I don't care for Putin, but he's proving just what an amateur your Obama really is.
Frank
Sorry but it all has to do with Money. Who's going to take over the Natural Gas business in Europe ? Which Banks are going to be making the most on the acts ? It's the US and EU economy against the Russian. Follow the money.
I'd have thought you'd pick as an example that war in the 70s instead of Normandy. The one where the US president did follow through on his 'line in the sand' - "Now we have a problem making our power credible and Vietnam looks like the place."Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakebound
America is a country made by war...literally. But in this day and age, war needs to remain to the absolute last resort. Putin is not exploiting President Obama. He is exploiting the fact that without a coordinated response from Europe and North America nothing can be done to hurt Russia short of "pushing the button." He is counting on the predictable result that ANY response to his actions will be fragmented. I bet he is good at poker!
Lakebound, unless you are carrying a green card or here illegally, Mr. Obama is your president too!
He's not my President. He's the current President of the United States.Quote:
Originally Posted by Splashone
"Dissent is the Highest form of Patriotism". - Hillary Clinton, Jan 21, 2009
Frank
Although yours is another fine example, it didn't dovetail with my position of Obama's own difficulty of "American Exceptionalism". I wasn't going to address the "line in the sand" issue with this current Administration.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Frank
huh? I guess you mean you didn't vote for him? So who exactly is your President, if it's not the President of the US?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakebound
Seriously, I wasn't really joking all that much in my previous post. Direct interventions such as war cost a lot of money. Obama is not being weak, he's being economically prudent. Besides which, when exactly did the US become world police for any and all matters such as this? Why are we not talking about how weak Europe is? NATO is right there...
James.
Yes, but there are those who pay for it and those who get paid. They tend to have opposite views on whether a war should be had or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
And you're changing the subject. As David told you it's not whether Obama is doing anything good or reasonable, it is about how terrible he is no matter what. Please, do not confuse us with facts!
Why do you always talk as though its your America vs other's America lol?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakebound
Seriously, I am not trying to be funny here. Its as though your assuming some Americans don't want what's best for America, where others do? What ever happened to "our" America?
I probably shouldn't have posted that... Its not ment to be combative. I mean the OP wants Obama to shut up even more than he is... I see what Obama is doing but not sure the world is ready for a intellectual president and you seem to have disowned him as though what he does has no bearing on you.
Its just kind of odd. Kind of sad really. Was America and Americans always so divisive?
That's the big problem in this country. A certain segment decides they don't like the Pres or the "Big Fed Govt" and it automatically turns into well he's not my Pres or lets get rid of the big Govt problem.
As long as some folks feel that way this country has no future. Maybe 20-30 years another civil war maybe.
The problem with "our America" is some folks idea of it is to force the rest to live their way. No different than the Taliban really. Just the brand is different and the degree is different. it's like they say you can be robbed two ways, with a gun and a pen. Most think the gun is more "honest".
And yet you probably liked the little cutesy video parody on the Koch Brothers that earcutter provided. Interesting how the leftists progressives and those here who are not even Americans love to demonize "the rich" interest groups and laud Obama as "intelliectual" but fail to point out that they (the leftists) have their own bank rolling sugar daddies.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
George Soros is only but one progressive bank roller for people who are trying to as you put it "force the rest to live their way". The Democracy Alliance, which was founded in 2005 by Democratic strategist Rob SteinThe Democracy Alliance members who must pay approximately $30,000 in annual dues. And, members must also donate at least $200,000 to approved progressive groups.
This group also solicits contributions from left-wing millionaires and billionaires, and serves as a ‘pass through’ between those donors and top liberal advocacy groups, including the Center for American Progress, Media Matters for America, and Democratic Super PAC Priorities USA.
So while we have the Obama fans posting funny little videos about how the Koch Brothers are trying to tell the world how to live, we have the same type of behavior on the left and that's where the divided country comes in. But hey, it's easy to pick on the Koch brothers or to compare people to the Taliban when you don't agree with them right? That's just another tactic of the left from Alinsky's Rules for Radicals: Smear your opponent, call him names.
Let's talk about the other side too and be fair. Let's mention the leftists in America who are pushing their own socialist, progressive and anti-Christian agenda with big dollar contributions:
Here’s a list of Democracy Alliance’s “new partners” for 2013:
•Paul Boskind: CEO of Deer Oaks Mental Health Associates and theater producer.
•Larry Cohen: President of the Communications Workers of America.
•Randi Weingarten: President of the American Federation of Teachers.
•George Kohl: Senior director of the Communications Workers of America.
•Michelle Ringuette: Assistant to the president of the American Federation of Teachers.
•Amy Goldman: Author, horticulturalist, and daughter of the late New York City real
And here’s a list of Democracy Alliance’s “new partners” for 2014:
•Adam Abram: Founder of James River Group, chairman of Franklin Holdings, chairman of Piedmont Community Bank Holdings, former president of Adaron Group.
•Noel Beasley: President of Workers United, vice president of the Service Employees International Union, chairman of Amalgamated Bank.
•Keith Mestrich: President of Amalgamated Bank
•Philip Munger: New School professor, son of Berkshire Hathaway vice chairman Charles Munger.
•Colin Greer: President of the New World Foundation.
•Heeten Kalan: Senior program officer at the New World Foundation.
•Rick Segal: CEO of Seavest, Inc.
•Ryan Smith: Unknown. It was originally reported that Smith was the CEO of Qualtrics, but that was not the case.
•Henry van Ameringen: President of the Van Ameringen Foundation, son of Arnold Louis van Ameringen, founder of International Flavors and Fragrances.
•Dirk Wiggins: Founder of Code for Progress, former director of targeting for Field Strategies, former outreach director for the Florida Democratic Party.
Maybe we should get back to enjoying straight razor shaving. That's probably the only thing that a few of us will agree on. It's obvious to me that several here are mesmorized by Obama, I get it.
Frank
I don't think you do "get it" Frank. Of course "the left" is pushing back lol!
I particularly enjoy the notion that you think they (the left) are pushing an "anti christian" agenda lol... because clearly no one on the left is a christian lol!! Bahahaha... fyi - some Christians actually believe in America.... and some of them are liberals!!
Here is a little example:
In KS - a very Red government has seized the day. They promote christian values and libertarian thought. Of course, the schizophrenic nature of those two words in the same sentience eludes them lol.
Anyway, on one particular day, these fine people in power decided to address the notion of abortion with this schizophrenic melting of christian values and libertarian thought. Hence, they came up with the grand plan and put into law the notion that were a doctor a christian, said doctor would not have to announce that to their patients (rightfully so) BUT, being said doctor was christian, he or she could forgo their professional obligations to inform the pregnant patient they were seeing that they may die at childbirth or that there were any complications at all with the pregnancy - if that doctor felt that that may lead the patient down the path to abortion... hmmmm.
So said christian/libertarian values as interpreted by KS law states that a doctor can lie to their clients to preserve what they believe is a moral high ground rather than that which they swore to uphold - the Hippocratic oath.
Now you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see how this little bastardization of the law might destroy that very thing that the founding fathers stood for lol. Of course, pinko liberals fighting for that - is termed a socialist agenda lol.
When you think of those fellows over at Fox claiming they are fighting for the rights of ranchers in Nevada... heck yeah! But well... it turns out he's nothing more than a thief and a terrorist lol.
What would really be great is IF those guys at Fox really believed in ranchers and protecting their rights... that they would back all those ranchers losing their lands today - you know, the ones that are being taken by big business under the guise of government appropriations happening en mass right now while they push the Keystone project! But NO!!
Who do you see fighting that fight?? Those socialist liberals you talk about lol!!
But wait!! I thought liberals hated what America stood for??? Bahahahahaha
It reminds me of a cheap sci-flick from the 70s where the aliens come to town and take over the population and turn them into zombies who do their bidding without any thought at all. Once you drink the kool-aid, well it's all over for you.
I predict a shut down of this thread if the current trend continues.
I was raised to believe that my rights end where the next person's begin. I think that as a society, we have crossed a line where everyone must be legislated to live within the limits of what group 'x' believes. What is wrong accepting people as they are and as they believe? You want to belong to religion 'x', fine. I believe in religion 'y'. Please don't force your belief's/norms on me or my family. That principle is what lead to the creation of this country. Having lost sight of that, is why we are in our current mess.
Religion has NO purpose in governance, unless you live in the Vatican.
You had better start burning all the currency you have or give it back. You know, all that "In God We Trust" rubbish and all. While you're at it, you might want to start pulling up all of those white Crosses and stars of David in Arlington too (You know, Federal Land and all). While you're busy, you need to stop into the House and Senate and tell them that the vaious engravings referencing God need to be removed too. Let them know that they should stop having an opening prayer to God by the Chaplain as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Splashone
And yes, the thread will now probably be locked and I will probably get booted because my opinion differs with a few here. And, I dared to mentioned (gasp) God. The leftists don't want open or free speech, they want to shut up the opposition.
Frank
You forgot to (conveniently enough) mention the connection Harry Reid's family has with a big contract for a solar panel farm there in Arizona too. That's the real reason that we want those pesky ranchers off State ..... errrr, I mean Federal Land. So this is just about your "big business" right? BLM are the real terrorists here as they are usurping 10th Amendment Rights issues. But you don't care about that pesky little Amendment until it runs against your agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
What a joke.
Frank