Thread: Cheep, Cheep,and more Cheep

I am employed as a Senior Mechanical Estimator (for over 12 years now) for a large engineering, construction & maintenance company I have provide prices for jobs/projects ranging anywhere in value from $100 to $70 Million over the years
and all our Clients want every job CHEAP and they all want the gold plated version for the cheapest price.

Now the real difference between the cheapest price, the highest price & the best price in my experience comes done to mostly Quality whether real or perceived (and timing but that doesn’t really count so much here)

the cheapest price now is not always the cheapest price in the long run and will usually have hidden costs later down the track due to lower quality materials, labour or manufacturing techniques etc,

as the dearest price is not always the best product or quality due to over inflated prices & rates.

The aim is to get the best Quality product to suit your requirements for the best price whilst keeping within the budget you have available.

My advice or guidelines I have to achieve this are as follows:
1st - Don’t rush into it, you will always pay for hasty decisions in some way later,
2nd - Determine what is actually required & the expected outcome
- is it a quick fix or long term investment,
3rd - Do your research of the available products, determine the quality level you are willing to accept or set some guideline to narrow down your choices that best meet your criteria,
4th - Determine how much work you are willing to do yourself to achieve your desired outcome
(eg. I purchased a Brunoblade and paid for the base metal work only, then completed the rest myself to the level of Quality I was willing to accept, sure it took a some hours & effort but I now have a full custom item for a fraction of the cost of buy it completed by someone else)
5th - Set your budget based on what you can truly afford & stick to it ,
6th - Now go hunting with the ammunition of the correct information aiming for what best fits within your own guidelines.

Finally - remember sometimes you may need to wait for the right target to come along

Regards
D

Originally Posted by WetShaveObsession

To say im pretty surprised is an understatement. I predicated everything i said wth the fact that I am new and perhaps had not been here long enough to see enough but stated what I have (or havent yet) seen.
I merely stated the potential perception of some posts in this thread and how it may not be what was intended to be conveyed. Sorry if you are offended.
I dont miss any forums as I am still very active at all of them and fully intend to remain so here. The real benefit in a PIF comes when you do it and don't feel the need to announce that you have or say how much money you have spent in doing so. Takes a good bit away from a good deed IMO.
If one out of ten stays and sticks with it - its worth it. The reward in a PIF comes from doing it, not from getting something back from it other than the good feeling of having done something good.
I thought perhaps my post might be misinterpreted. I apologize, I am very active on many Fitness Forums and on Staff at several so my mentality is always that of welcoming and keeping the newcomer. When I see a post new members might misinterpret or mistake or perhaps might keep them from participating or posting or even staying it is almost second nature for me to point it out. If you take offense, oh well you take offense. My apology only goes so far. I will keep coming here and do my best to give more than I take in areas where I am able to do so.

You try to make up for the sand you kicked in post # 26 by blaming it on yuor short time here, but go on to list your experience on other forums, Really ??

Nobody misintrepreted your post, you made yourself quite clear.

You simply should have gotten to know us, before you kicked sand in our faces.

Originally Posted by WetShaveObsession

To say im pretty surprised is an understatement. I predicated everything i said wth the fact that I am new and perhaps had not been here long enough to see enough but stated what I have (or havent yet) seen.
I merely stated the potential perception of some posts in this thread and how it may not be what was intended to be conveyed. Sorry if you are offended.
I dont miss any forums as I am still very active at all of them and fully intend to remain so here. The real benefit in a PIF comes when you do it and don't feel the need to announce that you have or say how much money you have spent in doing so. Takes a good bit away from a good deed IMO.
If one out of ten stays and sticks with it - its worth it. The reward in a PIF comes from doing it, not from getting something back from it other than the good feeling of having done something good.
I thought perhaps my post might be misinterpreted. I apologize, I am very active on many Fitness Forums and on Staff at several so my mentality is always that of welcoming and keeping the newcomer. When I see a post new members might misinterpret or mistake or perhaps might keep them from participating or posting or even staying it is almost second nature for me to point it out. If you take offense, oh well you take offense. My apology only goes so far. I will keep coming here and do my best to give more than I take in areas where I am able to do so.

I'm not offended by your post or attacking you in what I'm about to say. But I think we need to clarify or establish something. While many members here have and continue to be generous with their time AND resources, it really should not fall on their generosity to get new guys established. Time is understandable as many of us enjoy being of help or discussing our hobby. But the expectation that they may be as generous with their belongings may be expecting too much in spite of the fact that it happens frequently here (anyone recall the monthly give away?). Just because we would like to encourage others to join in doesn't obligate anyone to supply the tools. If a person finds themselves here, they have some interest. We can offer encouragement and help along the way but we're adults here and, in spite of the generous offers that happen, we are responsible for ourselves. But I think what most people were describing were the potential deals in the classifieds. There are two razors available right now under $70. They come up all the time. While $70 may not be pocket change there has to be some expectation of expense when you're buying the equivalent of a good quality knife. Let's not forget that these razors were acquired at a cost to the owner and in many cases are sold here for much less than what they could have sold them for elsewhere. That too should be considered paying it forward.

- Pifs don't garnish as much attention here because generally its a gentleman's form, and many men don't feel the need to brag when they have done a good thing.

If you have been here long enough:

- Yes there are guys who join who claim poor in order to get free stuff. Yes some long time members get bitter about it, some couldn't care less, others still, ignore it completely. But the fact is, as the www matures, those crying poor are getting better and better at doing so.

These "poor" gents have the negative effect of making things bad for many as good men cry foul and become bitter, hence publicly SRP has the giveaways - privately is anyone's guess. I know out of the blue I was piffed two great razors privately.

If you have been around straights long enough:

- You'll note that honing is an art and there is a fine line between assuming that what's best for many should be touted as gospel. I for one would love advocating that when starting out, one should only use synthetic.

Why?? Because I love straight razor shaving and want everyone to have the same smooth, effective shaves I do. I know now from being here for a while that many who go the natural route off the bat will get flustered and give up - I know I almost did.

BUT the there is always the outliers. And then there is the notion of killing enthusiasm by stating you have to do it one way or another... So guys who have been at it for a while who want the best for everyone, fight the line between seeing a time honored surefire way of failing for the masses, have to be tempered by accounting for individualism.

That's hard sometimes - but assuming the poster or forum doesn't have the shavers best interests at heart is insulting.

Speaking of having shavers best interests at heart... The Gold Dollar. Sure they'll work. So will my pocket knife! Doesn't make it a good tool. Its not a grand conspiracy!! Many of the guys here are new. Many wouldn't know a good smooth shave from a tinny shave. Many wouldn't know what to do to fix it either... Can they work? Sure. Are they the best or even good tools to begin with?? Again for guys who want other guys to love this sport as we do... the answer would have to be no! But again, its a fine line.

What I always wonder is why so many take it so personally that someone else thinks their < $20 isn't the cats meow??


Now Note - I don't speak for SRP!!!! I am not a mentor or mod or whatever. Just a guy who's been here for a while and read a bit oh stuff to come to this conclusion.

I reserve the right to change my mind lol .

I really do want everyone to love straights as much as I - that's it .

Originally Posted by MattCB

During a period of my young childhood life, my folks were not doing so well financially and we lived in a really crappy part of town. I remember even then being confused as to why people had these nice and shiny new cars.... and lived in such a horrible neighborhood. To be honest, this still confuses me. I would rather have a reliable used car that I have paid for than a flashy new one with payments... that they will probably trade in for another new one and more payments.

There is an old expression that sums that up nicely when you think about it:

I am too poor to be cheap. Or, I am too poor to buy cheap things I'll need to replace... Especially if it's not paid off lol!!!

There is cheap as in buying junk, which is a false economy, and then there is cheap as in seeking the best bang for the buck, which is being frugal. Personally, if you use the frugal approach with the view to having a pleasurable first experience I would suspect you had better budget around $100.00-$150.00 as an entry point. That is for a decent shave ready used razor, a decent shave soap, a decent boar brush and a decent strop. If that is not in your budget then wait till you have that.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

There is cheap as in buying junk, which is a false economy, and then there is cheap as in seeking the best bang for the buck, which is being frugal. Personally, if you use the frugal approach with the view to having a pleasurable first experience I would suspect you had better budget around $100.00-$150.00 as an entry point. That is for a decent shave ready used razor, a decent shave soap, a decent boar brush and a decent strop. If that is not in your budget then wait till you have that.

Bob

I wish I had said this.

Bob has defined the economic aspects of getting away from cartridges and canned goo. If one stays at this level of equipment then this person has saved money in the long run. It could be a long, long run depending on the initial outlay. This is not a hobby.

When Bob's list starts to grow in numbers and other equipment such as hones, grinders, tools (the oft mentioned RAD, SAD, HAD, etc.) then the person has a hobby. Just my opinion.

Dave

I find this discussion interesting and parallel but at much less expense to what I see frequently in flying. People with the desire but not the pocket book. There are plenty of people that show up at the local field for flying lessons, find an old neglected plane tied down since the Wrights gave up flying for $10K and announce their plans to get into flying cheap.

It is a false economy. IF they can get the plane flying, it always depletes their bank account and they have nothing left for the next maintenance issue or then they don't want to pay the price for the proper part and try to get some questionable salvage part to "keep going." The BEST end result is sunk costs and a grounded airplane, at worst a dead pilot and passenger! As a friend of mine is fond of saying to his mechanic, "Don't be saving me any money that costs me my life!"

The aviation and wet shaving community are very generous with abounding knowledge freely shared. Pay heed to what is passed on and accept gifts gratefully but any hobby has a certain start up cost and budget to keep it going. If one does not have the ability to surmount that, they are invariably better off not participating.

Hey Dave

I said "entry point" but that completely ignores the recurring costs of having to send the razor out to be professionally honed or the cost of buying a back up razor for when one razor is out for honing. It ignores the alternative to hone your own which could set you back $400.00 for the proper hones too. That is without getting into the various acquisition addiction disorders that you mentioned. I think a lot of people want to take up this form of wet shaving with eyes wide shut and unreal expectations of the costs involved and results immediately attainable.

I have to admit that for most people wanting to ditch cart razors going to a DE, as somebody mentioned earlier in this thread, is far more economical. It is also a huge step up from carts.

Bob

Sometimes, you simply don't know what you don't know or don't want to know.

The term PIF and the concept started with this forum long before it became popular anywhere else. Not only in providing people with tools, but providing them with the knowledge to become successful at wetshaving and then pass that knowledge on to the next person. We have long been the leader in local gatherings and one on one invites where people come together specifically to share knowledge and tools as well as to build the brotherhood and grow the art.

Have fun.

Originally Posted by WetShaveObsession

Ill just say this. I see a lot of senior member putting down the idea of starting with GD's or wanting cheap equipment to get started in the hobby, and they are surely entitled to that opinion and perhaps they are right. I firmly believe that it is really to the benefit of the hobby as a whole that the veteran members do all they can to encourage and foster the entry of new straight razor shavers. I also see veterans saying well you can pick u a vintage straight for $20 and you have a quality piece to start with. All of that and I have yet to see one PIF.
Have I not been here long enough? Am I missing something? Do not get me wrong the knowledge shared here is..well it is simply astounding honesty and there is a ton of value to that. It is very easy to cry "cheap foul" but what is being done to help foster the entry of those interested who are on a tight budget to enter into this hobby. All the mainly DE forums I belong to have PIFS left and right for the beginners. I have not been here long, I may be totally off base. I may be missing things and not seeing them but so far I havent seen anything like a PIF here yet. Not to say there aren't, but I haven't seen one.
I understand the distinction between cheap and a great value very well do not get me wrong. I have things that are great values that range from very inexpensive to very expensive. It is all relative. I just think its important in a thread like this to make the distinction of what is being said or implied very clear, otherwise all it does is scare off the new people that otherwise may stick around and get into this fantastic hobby.
Its easy to point out what new people aren't doing that would make this a better experience for them overall, but you have no control over that. The better question in my mind is what are you doing to help them. Threads that cry cheap with references that can be mis taken or misinterpreted do not foster or help new people much at all IMO. I am not insulting anyone in this thread by any means This is just my perception of such a thread as a relatively new member here. Take it for what you will. I already like this forum very very much. I am gaining an astounding amount of knowledge. Id hate to see someone put off that could be benefiting as much as I am by a thread that they could be misinterpreting so I think its very important to be very clear when you post in a thread like this to outright say exactly what you mean. Otherwise what might be taken away is if you dont have money don do this hobby...and I dont think that is the intent of this thread or the original post in it all all. In fact it is likely the opposite, but is that what new people reading it are perceiving?
I dunno..just some food for thought.