And that's because you have the NRA threatening to target a few vulnerable dems if they vote for this guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCDshaver
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And that's because you have the NRA threatening to target a few vulnerable dems if they vote for this guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCDshaver
Guys, please keep this thread on topic and don't turn it into a political argument.
Building a plant to run manufacture of medicine based on biological processes (i.e. the product is the output of biological processes in a bioreactor) costs in the order of hundreds of millions. Keeping that same plant running in compliance with the various international regulations (FDA, EMEA, etc) costs in the tens of millions easily. And bringing a product into manufacturing AND getting it approved by the various agencies is a process of many years and many tens of millions.
So ramping up for ebola is not a trivial thing by far.
Btw, healthcare cost is not just a matter of the US paying for research. Lots of ground breaking medical research is done in Belgium without causing me to pay through the nose for something simple. The biggest contributing factor to that is the fact that in the US, healthcare is seen as something that should generate big bucks instead of being basic infrastructure that should be available to all.
That, and the monopoly issue is what can cause your pill to be 20$ in the US and 1$ in India.
Another issue that we run into here in the US is that the FDA doesn't often recognize approvals done by other "FDA-type" agencies in other countries. The European Medicines Agency and Health Canada are often easier to get approval from, and approval in either will = approval in both, but the FDA doesn't honor that type of agreement. So drugs that are available in Europe might not be available here. The FDA is often much more difficult to get approval from than any other agency. For instance, I'm working a device through the FDA now for treating balance disorders in patients with traumatic brain injury, MS, Parkinsons, etc., and we'll likely have approval through Health Canada within a year whereas it's going to take 2-3 years here in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Even worse, I've seen more than a few good start-up companies go out of business because it takes so long to get approvals done. New companies have limited resources and sometimes simply can't stay afloat while waiting 3, 4, 5 years to get their product to market.
Just read this:
Leaked documents reveal behind-the-scenes Ebola vaccine issues | Science/AAAS | News
This is a surprisingly good summary of the issues in ramping up vaccine delivery scheduled while at the same time complying with the regulations involved in clinical trials and getting formal approval. It's not simple at all.
If there is a demand there would be a supply - FDA warns consumers about fraudulent Ebola treatment products
As long as they don't claim directly that their products prevent or treat the infection they could sell as much of it as they want.
As they say the free market would find a solution, and the not-too chained market would find too... may be because it always solves the exact same problem.
Ouch !!!!!
The following letter to the editor of the Lewiston Morning Tribune is interesting (and ironic)
Editor, Lewiston Morning Tribune:
If I wish to import a horse into the United States from Liberia or any African country other than Morocco, the horse needs to undergo a 60 day quarantine period at a USDA approved quarantine facility prior to mingling with the general population of horses in this country. Africa has a disease called African Horse Sickness that does not exist in the US; this is the way we have kept it out of this country. African Horse Sickness does not cause disease in people, only horses; our government has determined that it would be devastating to the US horse industry if it were to come here.
The United States (and virtually all other countries) require a myriad of tests and often quarantine prior to bringing in a foreign animal.
I can’t legally cross state lines in the United States with a horse or cow without a health certificate signed by a USDA accredited veterinarian stating that the animal has been inspected and found free of infectious disease. In most cases blood tests are also required. In fact I can’t legally cross the Snake River and ride my horse in Idaho without a health certificate and a negative blood test for Equine Infectious Anemia.
I’m not complaining; the United States of America, the States of Idaho and Washington as well as the other 48 states take the health of our livestock very seriously, and we have a very good record at keeping foreign animal diseases out of our country. I am happy to do my part to maintain biosecurity in our animal population.
If I am a resident of Liberia incubating Ebola, to enter the United States all I need to do is present a valid visa, and lie when asked if I have been exposed to Ebola. Within hours (no quarantine required) I can be walking the streets of any city in the United States.
I feel very fortunate to live in a country that values our animals so highly.
David A. Rustebakke, DVM
I'm certain he'll rejoice the day when he has to present certificates by accredited doctor for vaccinations and immunizations for 50-200 contagious diseases any time he has to cross a state border.
May be when USA gets a president who respects the Constitution and starts enforcing everything the founding fathers wrote in there along with everything they certainly have meant to write but didn't simply because it was obvious and ink was expensive back then.
Glen, shut it. We're relying on SCIENCE to get us through this. In the wake of that we're ignoring human nature and common sense but it's all very scientific. Just relax and.... Prepare yourself I guess.
Just when you thought this camp fire had smoldered,,,,,:rofl2:
Well, it's the well known federal government underreach problem that has been a central campaign issue for the past decade or four. We all know the feds are the only ones who can keep the good american folk from ingesting the vomit and poop of sick africans.
What non-medicos do not realize is,It took one person,one norway rat,and one Flea to start an epidemic that killed Millions of people.
It took one person to spread the spanish Flu that Killed 10s of thousands in The U.S.
It took one person infected with Polio to destroy thousands of lives.
Yes, Science can get us thru this.If we let it happen.
What I find interesting is that the ebola virus has been active in Africa since the 1970s. When "The Coming Plague" was written in the '90s ebola was supposedly so virulent that there was no chance of an infected individual making it onto a plane and spreading the disease. So 40+ years later, when it becomes a supposed threat to the good old USA, a vaccine becomes a top priority.
If the virus is contained, and this latest outbreak subsides ....... if it doesn't become an epidemic in this country, I'll bet a thousand dollars to a donut that we will hear little or nothing about a vaccine.
I don't know about this one person thing - it's the SCIENCE that claims it is so but we all know how trustworthy SCIENCE is. If you stop being dogmatic and read the non-SCIENCE sources you'll find out there are plenty of alternative explanations that make just as much sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelfixed
There were people long before there was SCIENCE and they survived just fine, well technically they all died, but still the point is that they lived all of their lives without any SCIENCE mumbo-jumbo (which was just for the chief/priest/shaman/etc. because he could manhandle it).
Science gives us all the great ideas about what to do and what not to do. Human nature has us lying to the authorities about whether or not we went out bowling or not. Science doesn't account for human nature in that way. It's long been the nightmare of science that someone with Ebola would board a plane and fly to NY. That day has come. We'll survive this if we get smart about all the elements in play, including the propensity to lie about where we've been and what we've been exposed to.....something two infected individuals have done thus far.
And let's not forget that 7,000 IIRC have been infected in the African countries with a bit more than half dieing. This in a geographical area with a population of millions of people and an infrastructure that is lacking. Nigeria has just been declared virus free, after a recent outbreak that claimed 20 lives, if I have the stats right.
I'm not minimizing the problem, or unsympathetic to the people who are bearing the brunt of it. I do think the world should do whatever is necessary to combat ebola, marburg and other serious infectious diseases that are especially recurring in "third world" countries, but I don't see it happening unless we are effected to the extent that it becomes self preservation. YMMV.
Jimmy, forgive me but your post almost suggests that it's best that that the US gets infected with Ebola in order to fix the problem. I'm not ready to subscribe to that thinking or sacrifice our own to save the rest of the third world. Call me selfish but I don't believe in sharing the pain just to resolve it.
It has nothing to do with being smart, it's a question of not being inconvenienced at the slightest when somebody else could suffer whatever they 'deserve'. The only way to get around the problem of lying is to seal off the US borders completely. After less than a day the economy will crumble and the next morning people would realize they've bitten off far more than they can chew and blame the politicians for doing it all wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCDshaver
Well, I'm exaggerating with a day, US can survive few days with sealed borders - we had 9/11 for comparison, but it won't be long before the consequences from sealed off borders become far larger than the currently perceived danger of epidemic.
That's a straw man Gugi. The narrative is that we close all borders or do nothing at all and that there are no measures in between. Just because we can't guarantee 100% security is no reason to do nothing at all. This is the common sense that is being thrown by the wayside. Time to sleep my friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
I've always had a positive attitude toward science. In high school I mixed my sports with my science class & got a "C" every grading peroid. :shrug:
My wrestling coach was having an affair with my science teacher, so as long as I kept winning, my science & math grades were taken care of.
Actually I posted earlier in the thread that there is a rather large spectrum between individuals taking care of themselves and the government sealing off the borders.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCDshaver
The problem is that many people pick arbitrarily various points of that spectrum and then claim that everything less restrictive is surely going to cause the end of the USA as we know it.
The disease has been around for decades through many mutations and is relatively well understood, including the way it develops. There are fairly unrestrictive policies which are the current CDC ones and they seem to be working exceptionally well, i.e. there have been already a couple of cases of sick people entering US over the past several weeks and there is no indication whatsoever of the beginning of epidemic.
Of course, there is always the possibility of it mutating to airborne (likely, though not certainly, more contagious), or somebody severely sick sitting next to you vomiting all over you and getting you sick, but that would be actual straw man.
I'd rather politicians make policies based on science and reason, not on politics and unfortunately we see far too much of the later.
BTW the Doctor/Vet is for real and this letter is for real
it is in fact making just a bit of old fashioned "Horse Sense" to others
Roy Exum: A Veterinarian’s Horse Sense - 10/25/2014 - Chattanoogan.com
May be that's the problem - he has been spending too much time with horses and has forgotten that people are completely different species and in this country things you can do to horses you can't do to people.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Resolute nurse plans to end voluntary Ebola quarantine | Dallas Morning News
This should get interesting,,
My understanding is the law is behind the state on this matter but that all might get put to a legal test soon
Animals be it a horse, a dog or a cow are considered property in the U.S and property can be legislated and regulated. Ever have your unlicensed dog picked up by the control people?
The same people who complain about overreaching Govt complain the Govt isn't doing more.
As to sealing the border that's as possible as my winning the lottery this month. How long is the southern border? How long is the northern border? How long are our seacoasts. How do you seal all that?
Are Mandatory Ebola Quarantines Legal? - The Daily Beast
Interesting reading, that and some other quick research seems to side with the States having even more power then the Feds on this
State Quarantine and Isolation Statutes
Well, if US would have the political will it is possible - there is enough manpower and budget under the 'Defense' umbrella, so if the US border control is prioritized as more important to defense than things like the border control between South and North Korea, or the US military presence all over the world it could be done in principle. However the reality is that it is politically unfeasible.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
But it looks like these things will get decided by the courts, which does not seem all that unreasonable to me. Even as they move into more politicization they are still a check on the legislative and executive branches. There are certainly laws that allow authorities to detain people who are a threat to the community, but they still should have to prove the existence of that threat.
There are plenty of secretive and unaccountable government entities already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Looks like your Government has made a decision Jimbo
Latest updates / Australia stops processing visas from West African nations affected by Ebola - World Israel News | Haaretz
LOL Nth Korea has decided that no tourists will be allowed in :rofl2:
or out hehehehehe (that is a bad joke)
info - https://www.internationalsos.com/ebo...ontent_id=435&
Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
That Statutes link above has a pretty clear definition in there...
"Quarantine may be used to restrict the movement of well people who may have been exposed to a communicable disease until it can be determined if they are ill, for example, people who have a communicable disease but do not know it, or may have the disease because of close contact with ill people but do not show symptoms."
Looks to be an uphill battle to beat that in court,,,, each state of course is different..
Another take on it, which is a bit more ambiguous
According to numerous federal and state court decisions, the state must show that it made “an individualized assessment that a person poses a risk,” and demonstrate to a court that the decision was based on a sound scientific evaluation.
Edit and Question:
Ok I read this at least twice and I am missing something.. The Nurse in ME now, she had a temp so NJ put her in quarantine, after 3 days she tested negative to an actual Ebola test. NJ let her go home to ME, and she was put under monitored quarantine
Why would she still need to be monitored ??? is the test not accurate enough ???
Has anyone seen a reason for that ??
Why would she still need to be monitored ??? is the test not accurate enough ???
Has anyone seen a reason for that ??[/QUOTE]
Lot of variables.
Any test will depend on the percentage of cells infected. At some point the number of infected cells will become "visible" to the test. By visible it may be the output of a infected cell before or after it bursts.
It is thought three or four of the Ebola are enough to start an infection. The eyes are particularly vulnerable. This small exposure would push toward the end of the quarantine period.
OTOH, if you are drenched in Ebola (vomit or blood) and have any mucosal membranes exposed or open cuts the infection will ramp up very quickly.
Just my take on this very nasty way to die.
Dave
Two thoughts from reading this thread:
1) Viruses are surprisingly stable genetically. The ebola of today is virtually identical to that of the 70's. The chances of it going airborne are VERY, VERY low.
2) Ebola is a "wet virus", meaning it cannot survive for long outside of body fluids, so it does not spread easily. It requires direct transfer of infected fluids.
For these 2 reasons, talking about an ebola "pandemic" possibly being like previous flu pandemics is a false equivalent. These are two completely different viruses. Finally, this idea of "shutting down the borders" is both unreasonable and illogical. The guy who came back infected in Dallas came to the US via Germany, meaning we would have to either shut down ALL air travel, quarantine ALL travelers, or track all previous travel for EVERYONE entering the US. I think the number of people going to/from the US and foreign destinations is around 100 million/year.
You realize that the average life expectancy before "science" as you put it, was in the 30's-40's, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Not to mention the 50% child mortality rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by DickWhitman
Exactly. Yet people still believe we walked the earth with the dinosaurs. :confused:
As an old ironworker I knew used to say, "Don't put words in my mouth and then quote me." :nono: I'm not suggesting that at all. Merely pointing out that until it seemed to be a direct threat, "we" weren't very concerned, based on our response. Sort of like the situation in Rwanda when the slaughter was happening. What was Clinton's response ....... play nice now children, or something along those lines ....... if that.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCDshaver
The thing about ebola is that there's never been a very large outbreak until now. It generally hits a small community hard, then goes back into obscurity. We have limited research dollars, so it's going to be spent on whatever is seen as an immediate threat. Every year we (in the military/DoD) get a list of major research topics from congress that reflects what are considered the top threats/problems, and we have to put the money there. And when it comes to DoD, when you have thousands of soldiers dying from often preventable injuries, and tens of thousands coming back with injuries that require treatment, something like ebola is just not the main focus.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
That is the cold logic behind what gets done with taxpayers dollars for medical research. I am sure the same holds true up here. The short version is "If it is not happening to us it does not matter" regardless of how it is justified. That goes for private sector research not funded by government monies also, with the added disincentive of there being little profit in it if they are successful in finding a vaccine. A basic complete lack of altruism.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorEthanolic
Fortunately for the people that so far have been the only ones effected by Ebola, Africans, there now seems to be more of an incentive to come up with a vaccine. The public in the West now views it as more of a direct threat. Lets hope that when this current large scale outbreak is declared over this new found incentive does not disappear totally also.
Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorEthanolic
That is simply not true, nor what anyone is proposing at least not what I have seen so far...
"The Guy" Duncan still had to have a Visa to travel from Liberia to the US that is exactly what counties like AU just stopped. that is literally a stroke of that oh so famous pen here in the US.
Seems like a reasonable solution until the public panic dies down and we are sure we have the proper protocols in place, a temporary halt to Visas from West Africa.. With a reasonable quarantine situation in place for returning US citizens from West Africa..
As to other foreigners coming to the US, I would hope that we can tell where they have visited recently from their PP stamps/scans
Our people are in quarantine in Italy. Australia has closed their border. These are facts.
Artical from yesterday. NTY.
Ebola is a lot easier to catch than health officials have admitted — and can be contracted by contact with a doorknob contaminated by a sneeze from an infected person an hour or more before, experts told The Post Tuesday.
“If you are sniffling and sneezing, you produce microorganisms that can get on stuff in a room. If people touch them, they could be” infected, said Dr. Meryl Nass, of the Institute for Public Accuracy in Washington, DC.
Nass pointed to a poster the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention quietly released on its Web site saying the deadly virus can be spread through “droplets.”
“Droplet spread happens when germs traveling inside droplets that are coughed or sneezed from a sick person enter the eyes, nose or mouth of another person,” the poster states.
Nass slammed the contradiction.
“The CDC said it doesn’t spread at all by air, then Friday they came out with this poster,” she said. “They admit that these particles or droplets may land on objects such as doorknobs and that Ebola can be transmitted that way.”
Dr. Rossi Hassad, a professor of epidemiology at Mercy College, said droplets could remain active for up to a day.
“A shorter duration for dry surfaces like a table or doorknob, and longer durations in a moist, damp environment,” Hassad said.
The CDC did not respond to a request for comment.
Avoid doorknobs at all costs ......... :beer2: