What is wrong with America

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Originally Posted by gugi

Even in the US tax system money is prioritized to labor and it is a reflection of the larger trend - money is far more valuable than work and the rewards for the creation of wealth are distributed with the lion's share going to the money involved and the crumbs to the labor.

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That taxation system is pretty common in the first world countries, actually. The usual 4 categories are:
-money/investors (lowest taxation)
-property owners
-labor
-self-employed labor (highest taxation)

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Originally Posted by gugi

The standard approach from the past of 'let the market price everything' is not a long term solution because the increase of productivity means that the labor side is systematically weakened while the money side is systematically strengthened in the process.

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A free market requires not only educated and informed consumers but also low barriers to entry for competition. Without those, the market tends to stabilize in monopolies or duopolies with cyclical changes in the top dogs... usually when the previous top dogs missed a game-changer. It's no surprise that the large companies are spending insane amounts of money to avoid both.

A lot of the issues in this thread can be tracked through the changes in the retail industry over the last century or so. Retail went from full service through skilled "sales associates" in small shops, to self-service with serviced check-outs by "sales associates" in department stores, to self-service with basic check-outs in supermarkets, to self-service in limited choice with self-checkout in discounters where one "cashier" oversees up to 8 check-out lines.

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Originally Posted by MichaelP

It's cool, I see it as an opportunity to grow. I'm also contacted by recruiters all the time, there's just no emergency yet for me to take anything below my dream job ;)

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OK, cancel the sorry part, but it still is the bitter truth. ;)

Something my father once told me.

"There are three ways to make money. 1) the old fashioned way, "to earn it". 2) The really, really old fashioned way, "to inherit it". And 3) The really, really, really old fashioned way, "to steal it." :shrug:

Everything goes in cycles. You know everything old is new again. Folks in the late 1800s and early 1900s discussed similar things we are discussing here and now. That's what gave rise to the labor movement and Unions. You may not like them but it was only when workers banded together and shut plants down that the big shots started to take notice and when they brought in goons to silence the organizers and that didn't work it was only then that they had to negotiate and wages and benefits started to increase and it was only then with organized labor the politicians started to care about the working man and pass pro labor laws. Once these things started to happen even non union outfits had to raise wages and provide benefits partly to compete and partly because law mandated it.

All of that is sinking now so it is no wonder the standard of living is decreasing. Eventually folks will have to band together again to get back what they once had.

People make the mistake of associating all the technology and the fact the "poor" have big screen TVs and Cell Phones and equate that with better times. The fact is economically this country was at it's peak in the late 1950s and early 1960s. It was a time when one wage earner could support a family, pay a mortgage and send his kids to college and go on vacation every year.

We see things from our point in time. Back in the 1800s or even the 1700s there were always things rich and well heeled folk could spend their money on probably the equivalent of the trappings we have today. A nicer home, better furniture, better clothes, a nice firearm, jewelry a better horse a nice saddle. 100 years from now folks will look at us and laugh at the things we consider high tech.

Am way ahead of the tech curve,I don't even own a cell Phone:)

What's not to like about unions ? Love mine just wish there was more unionized workers so we could have a bit more power

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The fact is economically this country was at it's peak in the late 1950s and early 1960s. It was a time when one wage earner could support a family, pay a mortgage and send his kids to college and go on vacation every year.

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That was a good standard of living. That standard did not include the huge homes people want today, did not include multiple expensive cars and different recreation vehicles, vacations were not generally overseas vacations, nor multiple TVs and the list could go on. People were consumers then but not the variety we have today and not to the extent either. People and their expectations are part of the problem today. Takes a long time for it to sink in that the party is over and you can't spend like a drunken sailor on a run forever.

Bob

From what I've seen the problem with unions is that they can become a shield for protecting incompetence.

I'm almost completely isolated from having to deal with such things but one time I had to hire union work for a very simple janitorial work. That cost $80/hour and they wanted 5 hours. It looked a bit steep, but in the grand scheme of things it wasn't a big deal - we paid far more overhead on that contract to people who did virtually nothing.
I don't have a problem paying the janitor good money to do good job - I would rather not see him struggling to feed his family or put a roof over their head.
I have problem only when the union workers deliver dodgy work and there is nothing that one can do about it.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

We see things from our point in time. Back in the 1800s or even the 1700s there were always things rich and well heeled folk could spend their money on probably the equivalent of the trappings we have today. A nicer home, better furniture, better clothes, a nice firearm, jewelry a better horse a nice saddle.

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A seven day set of Ivory scaled razors...

I hate seeing my union members providing substandard service or dodgy work. I'm a steward and I do a lot of peer to peer coaching to get them up to snuff. I'll gladly police my own for the ability to negotiate fair wages and benefits instead of my my employer thinks I'm worth, which I believe is nothing because I don't even have a name, just an employee id;(