Thread: Massacre at Virginia Tech

I might have wet myself, who knows...I would like to think that I would have been willing and sharp enough to have taken a stand...but I will never know.

This programming starts at a very early age; my wife is a teacher of middle school kids (6,7,8th) - she related a story to me that just drove me nuts - apparently a kid (one she knows pretty well, good kid but on the small side) had his book bag stolen by a larger (and lesser) bully of a kid, held it above his head and start banging it against the wall, wouldn't give it back, etc. Smaller kid tackled him and took his book bag back, bigger kid complained. Smaller kid is *removed* from this school, where he was involved, a good student and good kid, and sent him to the local district's school for "problem children". Big kid received no punishment. What are we telling our children when this happens, when a boy goes to school with nail clippers and is suspended for a week? When our preparation turns to paranoia and doesn't instill confidence but fear, of strangers, of tornadoes, of nuclear bombs, of warming, of cooling, of chemicals, of obesity, of anorexia, of guns, of organized religion, of lack of religion, of witches, of sex, of blah blah blah - what are we doing to ourselves and these poor kids?

I need to think that we all don't need to survive a holocaust to be heroes, to understand the bottomless evil and most exalted good in people, I have to believe that sacrifice still exists, and that unlike the hurricanes and 9/11, we won't keep forgetting the lessons learned at such a cost.

K

Originally Posted by scarface

From the Fox News Site, listing of the massacre victims:

Liviu Librescu
Librescu, 76, a Holocaust survivor and an Israeli lecturer in mathematics and engineering science and mechanics, was born in Romania and was known internationally for his research in aeronautical engineering. He had taught at Virginia Tech for more than 20 years, joining the faculty in 1985.
"His research has enabled better aircraft, superior composite materials and more robust aerospace structures," said Ishwar K. Puri, the head of the engineering science and mechanics department.


Video: Click here to hear more about Liviu Librescu's heroic efforts

[NOTE: Clicking this link will take you to the Fox News page - click this same link on that page (it's about half way down the page) to open the video clip - you might have to disable Norton Internet Security to view any clips - Lou]

Librescu's son, Joe, said his father's students sent e-mails detailing how the professor saved their lives by guarding the doorway of his classroom from the approaching gunman before he was fatally shot.
"My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Joe Librescu said Tuesday in a telephone interview from his home outside of Tel Aviv, Israel. "Students started opening windows and jumping out."

He was a holocaust survivor - he's seen more evil than I can even comprehend.

He was a hero.

I mourn them all.

-Lou

Now that is beautiful. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. I’m sure we will hear more stories like this as this gets sorted out. And there will be others, too, whose heroism is known only to God.

-Michael

Originally Posted by Kriton

The first question that I and several of my colleagues asked when all of this happened was why didn't somebody tackle this kid and beat him dead? I do not blame these kids, and who are we to arm chair quarterback here - but this guy is said to have fired over a hundred times - and the best that anyone could do was to block a door?

It is easy for me to have said that I would have braved the hail the bullets and climbed up this guy and beat him with the bloody stump of his own arm, but truly what was going on here?

The sense of entitlement that Jason was talking about is also a very ironic innate trust that someone will take care of us, that it is the policeman's job to protect us, the governments job to make sure that we are safe - and in a social contract sort of way, it is - but in reality we are all on our own here. We should not and cannot expect anyone in authority to do anything for us - weird thing is that the vast majority of Americans have (since Nam at least) a deep mistrust of the authorities and take them to task every chance we get. But we still remain and are becoming a nation of "sheeple", unable or afraid to take matters into our own hands when it seems the right thing to do because we have been programmed that it is just not right, politically correct or polite. We believe that the villain at the door will go away if we hide, will just leave - be it a shooter or global warming - that someone else will take care of it. It just isn't going to happen.

This reminds me of a recent incident down here in Texas (Burleson I believe) - a school district that hired a safety expert who came in and was teaching kids in a secondary school to *resist* if a gun man came in and tried to hurt any of them - he was teaching them what to do, to throw things, to fight back...the school board received complaints and fired him - it was all over the news. But I tell you this, I am going to teach my daughter to fight, my only beautiful child and the second most graceful woman in my life at 9 months old, to fight with every fiber of her soul and every weapon at her disposal - to control her own fate, and not leave her life and my grace in the hands of any demented, tortured and lesser being.

I saw the tv news article with the father of the lovely young woman who lived modern dance, and was killed - and I died a little with every picture and held back tear. I mourn their lost youth and my own. Spes Es Vigilante Somnium = Hope is the Dream of the Vigilant.

K

I do see ware you are coming from here it is without going out on a tangent similar to World War two when the American soldiers were taught to make a decision if presented with one (for example at the invasion of Nazi occupied France the U.S. had a hell of a time getting over the hedgerows and a regular uniformed Soldier figured out to attach some steel to the front of a tank to bash the way forward, the Nazis wouldn't have ever been able to figure out what to do, not because the army wasn't smart enough, but because they were trained to wait for orders) Americans are not going out and taking the initiative anymore and i think that is a real problem.

I have no real offering here except my deepest sympathy for all of those who lost loved ones.

This is unscientific but I believe gun control has played a part in the "Deer in the headlights" effect exhibited by not only the Virginia Tech victims but other shooting victims as well. I'm guessing that the overwhelming majority of those kids had never seen a sidearm up close except in a police officer's holster and even fewer had ever heard a firearm discharge. The only experience most of them probably had was what they'd seen on TV which is mostly unrealistic. Add in the shock and disbelief of a sudden encounter with senseless violence and it's little wonder most of them were rooted to the spot; unable to take action even if there might have been a chance to tackle the gunman or hit him with something. Well, gun free kids is what the gun control advocates have been shooting for (OUCH! A different choice of words, perhaps?). Had a few of those kids had a bit of practical experience with firearms they might have realized a gun doesn't necessarily make somebody invincible. Extemely dangerous, yes. Invincible, no. One thing infantry soldiers are taught is that if they walk into an ambush they are to immediately counterattack because they are already in the "Kill Zone" and will die if they do nothing. They have a high probability of dieing in the counterattack but their chances of survival are better than if they'd done nothing. IMHO some type of training to respond to these types of scenarios should be included in school curricula.

Teaching and preparing kids to fight is only trying to cure the symptoms IMO.
The real problem is that the USA has a culture of violence where violence is seen as a solution, rather than a problem.

a recent National Geographic documentary showed that Canada and Switzerland have a lot of weapons in circulation as well, yet they lack the problems that plague the US. Weapons aren't the problem, but the fact that people think weapons can solve a fundamental problem is.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Teaching and preparing kids to fight is only trying to cure the symptoms IMO.
The real problem is that the USA has a culture of violence where violence is seen as a solution, rather than a problem.

a recent National Geographic documentary showed that Canada and Switzerland have a lot of weapons in circulation as well, yet they lack the problems that plague the US. Weapons aren't the problem, but the fact that people think weapons can solve a fundamental problem is.

I'd have to agree with you to a certain extent there Bruno.

I think it's a complex thing for sure --- and being from the South I can tell you that the South has always had kind of a culture of violence controlled and mitigated by an over-riding culture of honor, respect for family, religious restraints, and courtesy ----when these restraints start falling apart then you're left with just violence ---- so what to do?

Justin

Folks, first let me start by saying that I don't condone what the shooter did.
It was wrong. Plain and simple.

A few people have thought about what they might have done if shot at but have added disclaimers about armchair quarterbacking.

I am a manly man. I lift weights. I practice a style of Indonesian knife fighting.
I shave with a straight. I have been shooting since I was 4 and got my first 22 at 5. I graduated Navy boot camp. I can shoot a 2' group at 20 yards with my side arm. I CAN TAKE A GUN AWAY IF WITHIN 5 FEET OF MY OPPONENT, EVERY TIME REGARDLESS HOW THEY ARE HOLDING IT.

I am listing these things not to brag (it's not bragging if you can do it) or to say that I am better than anyone else. I'm sure certain people here have done much more than me.

I am giving a little perspective.

I have been fired at at work. I wasn't hit because 1) the majority of inner city types don't know how to use sights properly 2) they don't practice 3) they were to far away to hit at their skill level.

Winston Churchill said that " There is nothing more exhilarating than being shot at without effect" .

It really sucks. The first thing you think of is to hide.
Without training it is very possible that the only thing you can think of is to hide.
I wear a vest and carry a pistol and still my first thought was " HIDE "
(that's someone hitting the deck)

The other day I was wondering to myself what a rifle sounds like when fired in the city. A little while later someone blew off about 40 rounds with an AK on full auto about 2 blocks away.

I can say that it was an AK because I've fired a MAK 90 full auto and it makes a distinctive chattering sort of sound. Even from 2 blocks away it made the hairs on my neck stand up.
(note to self, shave those off)

I don't think that it is reasonable to try to say what you would do until you have been there.
Until it happens you will never know.

I'll be back to comment on depression a little later, been there too.

I was stationed at naval special warfare group 1 in coronado for my last duty station. They train the navy seals there. One of the instructors there was an old shipmate of mine off our very first ship. After my first witness of hell week there I asked him if the people don't complain about all the full auto gun fire, and grenades going off during certain evelutions there. He told me yeah they do, but tough shit. It was neccessary to train these guys not to panic at the sounds of gun fire, grenades, screams, etc... If not it would be just like throwing them away when they finally did get into combat. That everything I saw there was so that they would not shut down mentally when confronted with the violence of combat. Some handled it better than others. I can definitly see how students if never around firearms would sit there like a deer caught in the headlights if never confronted with that before. Personally I have stared down rifle and guns pointed at me, and pointed some at other people when I had to in the military, and never liked it one bit. Everytime my heart felt like it was going to jump out of my chest and burst, and when it was over it took my hours to calm down. for most people unless there trained not to shut down in those situations they will, few wont.

The only time I have ever been more excited than after getting shot at was once when I handled "sweaty" Dynamite on a hot day without gloves and touched my face repeatedly.

Closest we could count was a heart rate around 180 bpm.

That also sucked. It felt like my head was going to explode.

Lesson learned you ask? Dynamite is cool !