UK out of EU

I'll try but I suspect you are simply being deliberately obtuse..

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The real issue is that many Enviro / USFS / BLM / EPA actions are looked at as being attached to Agenda 21

(Conspiracists look to attach any land action made by the Feds as being part of Agenda 21 it is a catch all phrase out here, especially in what is often called the Big 5 or The Redoubt)

When really some of it is simply stupidity done by over zealous Eco saviors..

(Many of the Eco-Saviors are simply more concerned with blocking any use of Natural Forests and Public lands then any consequences of their actions)

These types of illogical USFS designations to shut down public areas, is exactly what feeds into the Agenda 21 conspiracy theories.

(Illogical Federal actions like some I described feed the Conspiracy Theories, I can't make that more clear)

One of the biggest ballot issues in local/state elections in the Rocky Mtn west is Federal control of state lands..

(Our Elected State Officials have made this overzealous federal control of state lands a ballot issue especially in the last 10 years I can't clarify that any more for you either )

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I hope that makes it more clear if you actually did not undersatnd in the first place




The Big 5 / The Redoubt = Idaho, Montana, North & South Dakota and Wyoming..

Not sure if you are familiar with the shear size of these states, Montana alone is 10,000 Sq/Miles larger then all of Germany and only has 1/80th the population. The people out here see no reason for the Feds to be in control of approximately 75% of the land area.. This Federal Control of state lands is exactly what feeds into the Agenda 21 Conspiracy theories...

After her catastrophic policies have single handedly destroyed the EU, Angela "The Dark Lord" reverts to type, and proclaims:

"We must concentrate on efficiency!!"

.............:rofl2:

Attachment 240257

Golly Phrank, I thought that might be a private pic of Hillary after a dip in the O'l Hot tub. Yuk.

Ah, yes. Nothing lightens the mood quite as much as a bit of old fashioned misogyny.

Well, back to politics, who said it: Germany, or UKIP?

• “Well, I reckon dogs are more intelligent, better company and certainly better behaved than most Muslims.”
• "Don’t forget about step two of White Genocide: Genetic assimilation via forced integration Don’t forget about step two of White Genocide: Genetic assimilation via forced integration - White GeNOcide Project "
• "Asian Muslims groom our white girls, now they rape our boys. Jordanian Paralympians commit sex offences. We need to reclaim our country"
• “We are not just talking about pressure on services from immigration but also, and I have to say it, the crime associated with Romanians.”

I could go on for hours. Hint: #PostRefRacism will show you the other side of Britain, and you will not like it unless you believe that your neighbouring country is sending murderers and rapists, in which case you probably should not be part of the human race in the first place.

There is a growing trend of right wing extremism washing across Europe. Yes, Germany, too. I do not think we do need more of this. I do not think that aggressively divisive language (Glen, not everyone concerned about the environment is a terrorist, even if they are over-zealous - and they often are, I shall gladly grant you that) will help foster political dialogue. But if there is one thing one cannot accuse Mrs Merkel of, it is aggressive behaviour in whichever shape or form.

That said, I am watching the actions of the political left after Brexit with growing concern. Both Martin Schulz, and leading German Social Democrats, are pushing for a fast and decisive move the get the UK out of the EU. Once more, Angela Merkel has been a voice of reason here, clearly stating that the UK needs to get its act together before invoking article 50. If there is anything to be really concerned about, it is probably some of the eastern European accession states which have been taking an ever more aggressive anti-UK stance over the past few days. And given the EU's political mechanisms, there is a chance that they can acutally do some real political damage here. That is something you should be concerned about.

In the meantime, more hilarity has ensued in the UK. Boris Johnson has decided that being PM might not be his proverbial cup of indigestible brownish liquid, and called it quits. That is the man who cheerfully drove around the Kingdom in what has come to be known as the blunder bus, a vehicle made in Germany and Poland, whose price will rise £56,000 after Brexit, and whose white-lettered lie of £350,000,000 per week for the NHS was scrapped minutes after the success of the referendum.

Apparently coached by his wife, Mr Gove has since decided to run for PM despite numerous assertations that he considered himself unfit for office in the previous months and years. He will be challenged by some polling cannonfodder, as well as Theresa May, a more loving and empathetic version of Margaret Thatcher.

Also in the UK, the Labour party is doing its best to make itself even more irrelevant, including an attempt at making the National Front look like a bunch of anti-fascists.

In the meantime, Frankfurt and Paris are preparing to share the spoils of the City once its financial institutions have been - predictably - forced out of the UK.

So, same old, only worse. And believe me, it will get worse.

You can wring your hands and gnash your teeth all you want about the rise of the extreme right in Europe and in North America. Unless the powers to be can effectively do something to change the underlying socio-economic conditions that makes the extreme right option so attractive these days, the problem will just keep growing. They have to drop their apparent "let them eat cake" attitude and get real. The new system is not working for a large group of people. Fix it and the problem of the extreme right should diminish to the point where it is no longer a big and growing problem.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

You can wring your hands and gnash your teeth all you want about the rise of the extreme right in Europe and in North America. Unless the powers to be can effectively do something to change the underlying socio-economic conditions that makes the extreme right option so attractive these days, the problem will just keep growing. They have to drop their apparent "let them eat cake" attitude and get real. The new system is not working for a large group of people. Fix it and the problem of the extreme right should diminish to the point where it is no longer a big and growing problem.

Bob

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Yes, one comment I have, is I have yet to hear from Robin what he thinks Germany's part in all this debacle is? And specifically, Robin's obvious belief that Merkel is above reproach and bears no responsibility for this complete disaster which is Brexit, while in my opinion, and in many others, the shaking of the very foundation of the EU can be laid squarely on Angela Merkel.

I will post a link to the full article from the National Review, by Victor Davis Hanson, an American military historian, columnist, former classics professor. National Review is to the right on the political spectrum, but as the author is also a military historian, I think he brings an interesting insight - YMMV.

Here are two paragraphs I found interesting on "the root cause" of the disaster that is Brexit, Frexit, the imposition of poverty by Germany on Greece etc.,,,

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What to fear in Germany — an ideologically driven leader who unilaterally is changing the demographics of the nation without public support, or an angry populist counter-movement that vows to keep Germans safe by any means necessary when the government won’t? Both, or neither? Is Germany postmodern in erasing borders, or premodern in bullying its neighbors to do the same?

Does the world want Germans to stand up, reassert their pride in Western liberality and tolerance, and insist that migrants either integrate and follow Western values or go back home and stay there? Or does it want Germans to more or less continue to repress any expressions of cultural confidence?

To even the least-informed observer, German chancellor Angela Merkel’s recent decision to allow tens of thousands of young Muslim migrants — about two-thirds of them young men — into Germany from the war-torn and terrorist-infested Middle East seemed unhinged. Over a million migrants entered Germany in 2015 alone, the vast majority of them young, male, Muslim, from the Middle East. They were not refugees by any classical definition. Apparently Merkel in particular, and Germans in general, must assert that they are the most recklessly postmodern of all Western nations in order to reassure the world, 77 years after the outbreak of World War II, that they are no longer the most recklessly nationalistic.(Emphasis mine)

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And finally, perhaps striking closer to home on the motive for Merkel's shotgun blast to European Unity:

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Did Merkel not understand that what Germany does, given its unique past and present power, takes on global significance in a way not true of other European countries? Germany’s combination of internal self-destructive tendencies and arrogance in exporting its immigration foolishness to its European neighbors is what both confuses and scares the world. Observers want neither another decadent Weimar Republic nor a nationalist racialist reaction to it.(Emphasis mine)

Read more at: Germany & Angela Merkel Are Arrogant but Guilt-Ridden, Enigmatic and a Problem

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The EU was intended as a "Free Trade Zone", and evolved from an economic and monetary union to a political one controlled by Germany, which resulted in European policy being set by Merkel - and it's results are an unmitigated disaster, as regardless of what happens with Brexit, it's set a precedent, and the EU's credibility has been shredded. At the least, what was the EU will be have to be radically redesigned.

Brexit, and now the resulting chaos in France (Frexit) and the polarization occurring in Germany with the once again rise of Nationalism, and other EU member natons, can be laid squarely at Merkel's feet, all for some misplaced arrogance and guilt-ridden national psyche.

The arrogance is perhaps the most appalling thing to me. When your policies have less than %40 support of the population they're being enacted on the fault lies not with the people that are pissed off, but on the ignorant politicians that continue to ignore the will of the people they were elected to represent. Historically speaking, anytime a politician or king has found their head in a noose, proverbial or literally, the fault is their own for not LISTENING to the people they govern, and CHANGING their policies accordingly.

This has gone from looking like an Amicable Divorce to a Bad Divorce to the Worst High School Break up ever...

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Originally Posted by Marshal

The arrogance is perhaps the most appalling thing to me. When your policies have less than %40 support of the population they're being enacted on the fault lies not with the people that are pissed off, but on the ignorant politicians that continue to ignore the will of the people they were elected to represent. Historically speaking, anytime a politician or king has found their head in a noose, proverbial or literally, the fault is their own for not LISTENING to the people they govern, and CHANGING their policies accordingly.

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Have to agree with the sentiment here,,

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Originally Posted by BobH

You can wring your hands and gnash your teeth all you want about the rise of the extreme right in Europe and in North America. Unless the powers to be can effectively do something to change the underlying socio-economic conditions that makes the extreme right option so attractive these days, the problem will just keep growing. They have to drop their apparent "let them eat cake" attitude and get real. The new system is not working for a large group of people. Fix it and the problem of the extreme right should diminish to the point where it is no longer a big and growing problem.

Bob

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One thing that is important is to realize what these small right wing minorities really are. They actually give no real answers, or their answers are beyond reality. They rather get their support on being against everything. Never mind what, just being against. And their get their support from either frustareted people specially those who are easy to manipulate. As one of those politicians said: doesn't matter how things really are, what matters is how you make people believe. Fear gives power. Without fear those parties sink and die.
The union is a good scapegoat. It is easy to blame it for whatever you can imagine, even bad weather. Other such scapegoats here are muslims, gays, atheists, orthodox, paganic, catholic or swedish speaking/bilingual finns (like me). Etc. Always someone else. It's handy. No one needs to look into mirror or think if he/she could personally do something about.

From our history i can tell that there is a easy way to deal with these parties. Give them power; let them join the coalition forming the government. With a year or two their popularity drops to zero or below.

Happened two times here in say last 50 years. At first with the agrarian party some decades ago and the same happened with true asses and their leader Jabba the Hutt, known also as Tim Os-Ung. They have lived just on being against. But when people demand realistic answers on realistic everyday problems or political issues they have nuthing to give. Emperor has no clothes and people see that most or everything they have been talking about was just a cheap lie.
When our parliament had talks on Fukushima explosion that same party gave an announcement demanding to stop building nuclear plants on tectonic plates :idea:

Of course these right wingers have always been such a small groups within say last 80 years. That doesn't mean that everything in societies would be well. There's always more to do.
What works here might work not somewhere else. Scandinavian model might have its flaws but at least it has been succesfull in keeping some of those problems very minimal. Making sure everyone has changes to education and at least minimum standards of living. At the times of war the slogan was 'no one will be left behind' and maybe it has been so ever since.