UK out of EU

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Originally Posted by Sailor

That is how different we people seem to look things in different places.
Here liberalism is out of the left-right context but might be everything against it as well. I consider myself as liberal right. Surely no left but not much conservative either. Might be that somewhere else i might have a label with different name.

But that is why forums like SRP are so great. Gives a change to learn more on world and people there.

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I think we are basically saying the same thing. Within each political camp, the conservative right and liberal left, there is also a Golden Mean. You have left leaning conservatives and right leaning liberals as well as right leaning conservatives and left leaning liberals on either side of each camps Golden mean.

So long as the majority of politicians elected fall within the golden mean of each political camp and the overall golden mean you stand a chance of having a government that actually works and can satisfy the majority of it's citizens. In other words stability.

When you have the majority of elected politicians fall in the golden mean of their political camp and to the right or left of it for their particular camp you get an ineffective stalemated government incapable of satisfying the majority of their population. A polarized government means a polarized disaffected population and trouble.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

I think we are basically saying the same thing. Within each political camp, the conservative right and liberal left, there is also a Golden Mean. You have left leaning conservatives and right leaning liberals as well as right leaning conservatives and left leaning liberals on either side of each camps Golden mean.

So long as the majority of politicians elected fall within the golden mean of each political camp and the overall golden mean you stand a chance of having a government that actually works and can satisfy the majority of it's citizens. In other words stability.

When you have the majority of elected politicians fall in the golden mean of their political camp and to the right or left of it for their particular camp you get an ineffective stalemated government incapable of satisfying the majority of their population. A polarized government means a polarized disaffected population and trouble.

Bob

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That is very true however it's not that simple because it's the people who get these radicals into power and you have to explore why the these citizens are doing this. Is it some organic movement or is it orchestrated and controlled by the puppetmaster's in the background with nefarious motives.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

That is very true however it's not that simple because it's the people who get these radicals into power and you have to explore why the these citizens are doing this. Is it some organic movement or is it orchestrated and controlled by the puppetmaster's in the background with nefarious motives.

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Exactly. I've had these questions for nearly the last eight years...

Chrisl

Interesting discussion so far. We just got back from a month-long trip to Europe (Holland, Germany, Ireland, Scotland, and England). We were touring England the week of the vote, and other than "blokes yelling at the telly" in every pub showing the European Cup matches, it was all anyone talked about (other than WTF-type questions about Trump-don't even get me started). I will say that not one person we talked to in driving around the country was a Brexit supporter, in fact quite the opposite, though I did see some pro-Leave signs. In fact, a couple of days after the vote we walked out of the Tube station at Westminster to a huge crowd of protesters and police in Parliament Square: bullhorns and signs, people shoving pamplets at us, etc., though it never got ugly or violent, just very passionate and loud!

Anyway, I read up on it as best I could-some compelling arguments on both sides. I won't even try to rehash all the arguments, as you erudite gentlemen have done that pretty well already. But even factoring in some very real and serious concerns about what the EU and globalism in general have done to the UK that echo similar forces here, I am deeply worried about the domino effect that seems to be starting. You can't go back in time, but you can absolutely go backwards, and I fear that the Brits are only trading one set of problems for another...

In the post 9-11 world I have noticed an increasing "circle the wagons" mentality; the chess pieces seem to be lining up all over the world now, and everyone seems to be retreating into the dangerous territory that exists in ideological extremes. Clearly the old forces of xenophobia and rampant nationalism/militarism, along with the siren song of the demagogues that can thrive in a climate of fear and anger when establishment politicians are all puppets of their corporate masters, are gaining strength seemingly everywhere. And you don't have to be a historian to remember that the grotesque bloodletting that killed tens of millions and reduced large parts of the globe to smoking ruins in WW's I and II were unleashed by similar forces. But I don't think WWIII will last 6 years; it might last 6 hours once one madman decides to "go there."

If you think this sounds like an extreme extrapolation from Brexit, maybe it is. On the other hand, look at Syria, or the power vacum/ISIS playground we left behind when we "liberated" Lybia (and yes, I know that Obama and Hillary own that disaster as much as Bush does Iraq). Look at Putin's increasingly bold taunts, or China's. Yes, these are perhaps somewhat off-topic, but the noble spirit that all the post-war cooperative efforts at least held as an ideal (UN, NATO, EU, etc.) seems to be slipping away, while the much-maligned international trade agreements only seem to leave the rich richer and the poor poorer, and the middle class mostly a nostalgic memory.

As always, the real losers in all of this will be the justifiably-enraged working class and poor people of the world who have been screwed so hard for so long that they are seeking desperate measures like the Brexit in Britain or howling demagogues like Trump here (yes I know, Hillary sux too, you don't have to tell me). I guess I'm rambling here, but I always try to look at the bigger picture, the "law of unintended consequences," and the lessons we never seem to learn in the category of "Be careful what you wish for." Rant over. Aaron/SHD

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

That is very true however it's not that simple because it's the people who get these radicals into power and you have to explore why the these citizens are doing this. Is it some organic movement or is it orchestrated and controlled by the puppetmaster's in the background with nefarious motives.

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Yes, it is that simple but you are right that there are various reasons citizens fall for voting in the extremist politicians. Extremist politicians and extremist camps can sense rising discontent in citizens like a shark sensing a victim. They then simply exploit the discontent to increase their voter base by telling the discontented voters what they want to hear. If they gain enough momentum anything can happen, even the seeming implausible. It is the failure of the more conventional politicians in the 2 different camps to address and rectify the perceived problems causing the voter discontent that set the stage for the 3 Stooges acts to appear. It should sound familiar enough on a no names/no pack drill basis.

Bob

The problem is that the underlying problems are too complex to be understood by someone only casually interested in politics.

The US are a slightly more interesting example for this than the UK in my opinion.

Democrats have thoroughly analysed, and assessed, the situation, then made detailed policy proposals.

Republicans? I fail to see anything even remotely resembling a coherent policy proposal. The wall, the Muslim ban, bombing the shit out of ISIL, introducing war crimes as an enhancement of the so called war against terrorism, rabid anti-Semitism and racism... Those are highly emotive topics that will appeal to the base instincts of a small, tightly packed group of people who have become losers in globalisation.

So you have facts on the one hand, and appeals to primitive emotions on the other. You can argue facts, but you cannot argue emotions. Which has made both the Leave.EU campaign, and the Republican platform, hard and disgusting to fight. I expect this to get dirtier, and more divisive, once voters realise they have been taken for a ride. Watch the current events in the UK, and I hope voters in the US will learn from this. Fast.

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Originally Posted by RobinK

The problem is that the underlying problems are too complex to be understood by someone only casually interested in politics.

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Most voters are only casually interested in politics and just want to be left alone and get on with their lives. They do, however, get resentful and restless when people who are elected and should understand the complex problems make a hash of solving them. After all, it is exactly these experts in complex problems who have created the situation. Nobody likes a financial advisor who looses their pension funds as an example. Most people recognize they have limitations in managing certain things and have to trust the so called experts to do the managing. Is it too much to ask that the experts/politicians get it right?

Bob

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

That is very true however it's not that simple because it's the people who get these radicals into power and you have to explore why the these citizens are doing this. Is it some organic movement or is it orchestrated and controlled by the puppetmaster's in the background with nefarious motives.

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I guess there are several reason why this happens. Almost never those extremists look radical. They are just smiling faces giving simple answers to complicated problems. People with decent education can easily see their answers are nonsense. But some always believe as they promise only nice things, specially for you.

And then there's few that really sound so crazy as they really are. I guess they get the protest votes. The ones that are usually given to Donald Duck, Elvis or rowing boat (at the gentleman forum i wont tell you what it is).

The first group makes more problems. They live on the fear of the people. And even if there's nothing to fear they make very realistic lies. They don't look radical, just polite nice people who promise to take away your worries and you don't have to do anything for it. Only vote and all your troubles are gone.

Of course media plays big part of it, somewhere more, somewhere less. Not so much here.

There seems to be a large concensus on how to prevent the social unrest. Decent education for all is important. Teach kids to use their own brains. Here we teach media criticism at school.
Another important factor to keep unrest low is to give everyone a change for minimum standards of life.
The system surely has it flaws but it seems to work somewhat ok.

I like how a good education keeps getting put forward as a part of the solution to unhappy voters. Not all the unhappy voters are knuckle dragging mouth breathing morons. I'd bet there are a fair number of voters with a decent education that are POed too. It is almost to the point where a university education and $1.50 is guaranteed to buy you a cup of coffee. Do you really want even more people to realize that they are being taken advantage of?

I grant you that having a university education is an advantage in even finding a job but not nearly to the extent that it was in the 1950s. Nothing like have a bunch of over qualified people working at jobs where they are basically underemployed at. Sounds like a recipe for contentment to me.

Bob

Ki

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Originally Posted by BobH

I like how a good education keeps getting put forward as a part of the solution to unhappy voters. Not all the unhappy voters are knuckle dragging mouth breathing morons. I'd bet there are a fair number of voters with a decent education that are POed too. It is almost to the point where a university education and $1.50 is guaranteed to buy you a cup of coffee. Do you really want even more people to realize that they are being taken advantage of?

I grant you that having a university education is an advantage in even finding a job but not nearly to the extent that it was in the 1950s. Nothing like have a bunch of over qualified people working at jobs where they are basically underemployed at. Sounds like a recipe for contentment to me.

Bob

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I do not have education from university. I was about to go (into historic studies) but once my gf (nowadays wife) got in, it wouldn't have been possible to pay loans for our house back then. I joined the military 'for few years' and that is where i am now. Right or wrong. Life doesn't always go the way you wanted it to go. I can live with it.

Media criticism isn't about universities but everyone from the first grade.

I once read Finnish study named 'wonderful fascism'. It was about how some of Finnish and European intellectuals got to fell in love with the wievs of Mussolini and Hitler. Once it happens, your country is in trouble. Real trouble. Haven't happened here this time.

Just get into conversation with anyone of these supporting those wingers, right, left or black. They are ordinary people who should deserve to decide anything there is based on a facts. Not images. And that is exactly these extremes do not want. They live on images and lies. It is possible to make conversation based on facts but not on images. We have a trouble here.

Different fears here and there. Whenever looking at how these wingers talk, they just tell how people should be afraid because some islamic, catholic or hurri (bilingual finn, like me) comes, rapes and cuts their head. I find it funny. Personally i've never had the need to rape or cut anyones head, but i've read that it is in my culture and blood so never mind facts spoiling the good story.

But that is the problem. It is not about leaving the Union or not. It is about people should deserve to make their decisions based on facts. Might be that it isn't happening now. The question is who are behind these lies and what should be do about it.