Thread: What Teachers Make

Joe,

Amen 1000 percent. I think discipline is one of the main reasons the private schools seem to be more successful. You can't fix societal ills by throwing money at them.

I'm pretty appalled at what even good parents these days let their kids do. And I'm only 26, so the good ol' days weren't that long ago...

Josh

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Pennsylvania's teachers earn more than a lot of engineers I know.

Here a teacher with a Masters and 10-years experience is paid under $40K. Not many engineers are in that situation. And don't start the "only work 9-months a year" thing... most teachers work close to 70-hour weeks across nearly 10 months and then have their "summer" filled with having to attend mandatory courses, etc. for which there's no additional compensation. And so, they can't get a job during the summer to earn extra money. The last number I saw indicated the average engineer worked about 60-hours a week x 50 wks = 3000 hrs; for teachers 70 x 42 wks = 2940 plus whatever is needed for summer courses and seminars to remain certified).

Vouchers are not the solution and the charter/private schools are not, as a whole, providing a better education... their test scores on average are much lower. There are exceptions of course, but I'm talking the national average.

And, what do you think will happen when the public schools are disbanded and all those charter/private schools are forced to accept all students (right now they can pick and choose who they admit)? Easy... they will have all the same students the public schools have today, complete with discipline problems, handicaps, special needs, etc.

I say we need to fix what we broke, not switch to something else that will have all the same problems in short order.

Joe,

Our average teacher salary is around $70K. Starting salaries are in the neighborhood of what you named. And the unions here sure whine a lot...

I work with professors, so I know how the "time off" thing goes.

I don't know what the solution is, but raising salaries doesn't necessarily fix the problem. I think the teachers unions are a big part of the problem. Paying more to attract the right people isn't always the same thing as just paying more. Look at the current crop of corporate CEOs.

Josh

Arizona is a "right to work" state... hence, unions are reasonably powerless here.

Most of the school districts here have phased out the pay-for-years-experience salary structure. Instead, pay is more directly a function of additional education and the scores students get on standardized tests. Except for a state retirement system, benefits are minimal... big deductibles, good sized co-pays on medical and prescriptions, minimal dental and no vision coverage.

And while there's still a tenure system, teachers who fail to produce the student test results needed will not have their contracts renewed. The problem in that is even great teachers cannot control test results when they can't control discipline. It's nice to say the teacher has to "motivate the student to learn", to "engage them", to "have more interesting lessons"... but we all know there are students that won't respond to any of those approaches... and it only takes one in any given class period to disrupt everyone else's learning experience that day.

My wife has had students as young as 2nd grade flat tell her "I'm not going to to the assignment and there's nothing you can do about it". And they're right. How sad is that!

AZ

Don't you think that students who willfully disregard class instructions should fail the course? Hold them back a year, and then see if their attitude does not change. If it does not change, hold them back another year, and humiliate them. If that doesn't work, send them to school on the short bus. Is this not the situation? Can teachers not fail their students? Can students not be held back? what about making "in class participation" part of the overall grade for the course, and if there is disruption, then the student fails that part of the course, and possible the whole class.

I understand that teachers do not want to put up with a problem child two years in a row, and therefore will "pass" the student with a D-, but if the teacher really cared, they would fail the student, and hold him/her back.

Originally Posted by mhailey

AZ

Don't you think that students who willfully disregard class instructions should fail the course? Hold them back a year, and then see if their attitude does not change. If it does not change, hold them back another year, and humiliate them. If that doesn't work, send them to school on the short bus. Is this not the situation? Can teachers not fail their students? Can students not be held back? what about making "in class participation" part of the overall grade for the course, and if there is disruption, then the student fails that part of the course, and possible the whole class.

I understand that teachers do not want to put up with a problem child two years in a row, and therefore will "pass" the student with a D-, but if the teacher really cared, they would fail the student, and hold him/her back.

There is more to it than that. If you fail a student, it makes the school look bad, and has a negative effect on the school’s bottom line. There is a lot of pressure from the school system not to fail students.

-Michael

If schools don't fail kids that deserve it, then what is the purpose? The degree/diploma carries no weight because illiterate individuals hold the same title. I mean no disrespect to anyone, but this situation is just asinine. I thought the education system was messed up, but is it really this bad?

Originally Posted by mhailey

If schools don't fail kids that deserve it, then what is the purpose? The degree/diploma carries no weight because illiterate individuals hold the same title.

I agree, and you see the same thing happening at the college level. In colleges, there's no incentive to keep standards high, and there are lots of pressures to lower them. Profs who grade tough get complaints from students and parents lodged against them. Accrediting bodies may revoke their blessing if grades drop too low. Students can lose academic and athletic scholarships. The schools lose money if a student drops out.... On and on.

Education majors, for example, have to maintain a 3.0 GPA to get state certified when they graduate. Guess which major has the highest average GPA at my alma mater?

I taught a feature writing class last year, and I made my students read four books and write six or seven feature stories. I got some flak at the end of the year for being so "tough." I thought I was a pushover.

I believe one major problem in higher ed is that our society pushes everyone to go to college. College was a good experience for me, and I'm glad I went. But I think it's perfectly OK for someone to work as a plumber or a mechanic. Most of them probably make more money than me anyway.

Schools want to hang onto every teenage bundle of money that walks in, so the temptation is to lower standards to accomodate the kids who are only there because they want to make more money someday, and they think a degree is the way to do it.

What's the solution?

Josh

Josh - it's the same in tertiary education in Australia. Since we removed technical colleges (where trades and vocational training were taught) and made Universities money making enterprises, standards have dropped. I admit straight up that I'm an elitist when it comes to degrees. I feel they should mean something more than a glorified attendance certificate.

I regularly have to explain to my employers why I fail over 25% of my statistical theory class. I tell them flat out that there's a minimum standard I require from third year students, and that I'm usually being generous only failing, say, 30% of them. I'm then required to put in writing a full justification of my assessment, every time. I can tell you, it's tempting to just give up and lower the bar, but I refuse! Tough love never hurt anyone in the long run, except perhaps the one dishing it out...

Anyway, I'm ranting.

James.

James,

Keep fighting the good fight. A degree should mean something. I like the law school line where they tell you, "Look to your left and right. One of those people won't graduate." Attaining a higher degree should be a struggle, not four years to drink beer.

I don't think schools are really out just to make money; most private schools in the U.S. "lose" money every year and have to supplement tuition income with fundraising. They're essentially providing a service for below cost, which probably helps create more demand...

The issue to me is a lack of respect for manual labor and rampant consumerism that isn't satisfied with a modest living.... American society reminds me of something I read once about what happened among freed slaves after our Civil War. The former slaves thought that hard work was something, well, slaves did. So a lot of them wanted to do something else, and the thing to do was become a preacher.

That works for a while, but once you exceed a certain preacher-to-parishioner ratio, the whole thing starts to unravel. We have a society of people who want to be "preachers."

Now I'm ranting, too. It feels good, though.

Josh