Thread: What Teachers Make

Originally Posted by mhailey

AZ

Don't you think that students who willfully disregard class instructions should fail the course? Hold them back a year, and then see if their attitude does not change. If it does not change, hold them back another year, and humiliate them. If that doesn't work, send them to school on the short bus. Is this not the situation? Can teachers not fail their students? Can students not be held back? what about making "in class participation" part of the overall grade for the course, and if there is disruption, then the student fails that part of the course, and possible the whole class.

I understand that teachers do not want to put up with a problem child two years in a row, and therefore will "pass" the student with a D-, but if the teacher really cared, they would fail the student, and hold him/her back.

When I was a kid fear of failing was a pretty strong motivator. Today most kids know that they will never be failed, so there's no fear there at all. Most teachers would love to be able to fail children who need it... not as a vindictive thing, but because repeating a grade gives the child a chance to catch up and succeed... a chance to feel good about their accomplishments. Passing them just places them in a situation where there's no hope of them succeeding and they give up trying even more so.

In the district my wife works in (and I believe it's generally true lots of other places across the nation) the parent has the final say as to whether their child is held back. Although my wife dutifully fills out the paperwork required to fail a student for several kids each year, only one parent has ever agreed in 10 years. Passing on failing kids is called "social promotion". Most parents are in self denial and claim they will help their child next year, etc. But they never do and so next year's teacher fills out the paperwork, etc. and history repeats itself. My wife has had kids in 6th grade that are still reading at the 2nd grade level and their parents continue to insist they be promoted.

I think one positive step would be to re-introduce discipline into school systems. And I'm talking serious board swinging!

RT

Originally Posted by rtaylor61

I think one positive step would be to re-introduce discipline into school systems. And I'm talking serious board swinging!

RT

And hurt their self esteem? Not to mention their poor little tender backsides.

As a hopeful future high school teacher, even i have to say the education system is a crapshoot. My g/f is in the college of education right now and her mom is a recently retired teacher and there are about 4 more teachers on that side of the family so often times i get to hear the nitty gritty detais about how terrible the system is.

It's almost to the point where kids aren't allowed to fail anymore. My g/f's mom complains that if she submits a failing grade to the school system, they call her and ask if they can pass the kid. She'll refuse and she does the paperwork, and the whole justification for failing process and even then, the mark still comes out as a passing grade. Now I hear that they want to change the system so that if a kid has less than 15 absenses from the class is passing and has a 'good attitude' and if the parents give their permission, then the kid doesn't have to write the final. So now the teacher doesn't even have the control to make kids write a test anymore. The owness in on parents to realize that "hey, maybe my kid isn't doing too well" but heaven forbid a parent would dare make their kid write a final exam...

Maybe my school was just a little harsh or something. Our policy was that you had to have less than 3 absenses, with a grade of at least 80% before you got the choice to not write a final (and it was limited to two exemptions if you had a full course load) and even then the teacher had the right to make you write the final. I had a great biology teacher who made me write my biology exam even though i had something like a 93% in the class, because she didn't believe in allowing exemptions from a final.

I've been fortunate to have some great teachers. My old physics teacher made us do pushups if he caught us rocking on our chairs! Sounds ridiculous maybe, but by the end of my time with him you can be damn sure i sat straight in my chair and listened to him (i could also do 100 nonstop pushups...).

There are exceptions, but theres an overall degredation in integrity in the new generation, and it stems out into other areas. A few years ago, I worked at McDonalds as a high school job. I drank and partied, and occasionally i would show up at work hungover, but I got there, and i didn't complain, and i worked my ass off for 8 hours surrounded by the sweet sweet smell of delicious processed food. Now i go back to talk to my old managers and they tell me stories like how a girl didn't come in because she couldn't find her shoes, or a guy doesn't come in because he just doesn't feel like it, and they can't even count how many times someone just gets fed up and walks off the job, something that never happened when i worked there.

And now today, how many articles have I read about university students cheating on exams with no consequences. It's outlined very clearly in the university policy "You cheat, you fail. There's a chance you can get expelled" Last I heard, something like +60% of students confess to cheating on exams. Punishments are a tap (not even a slap) on the hand. A university degree is meaningless but at the same time it's the golden standard for many of the 'prestigious' jobs.

Kids don't wanna work, adults don't want to have to punish. It's all too non-confrontational, no one wants to step on someones toes and it really makes me sad to see it. It's doing no one any good

Luckily, here in Belgiu, kids get failed if they are not up to par. That is not to say there are no special circumstances sometimes, but generally the teacher gets the last word.

There are teachers that can make all the difference in the world.
I have had a couple of teachers in my life that really made the difference between passing with flying colours and failing miserably.

It is my experience that there are a few gifted teachers that can lift an entire class to the next level. Sadly they are few and far between.
I do think that we don't give them enough credit though. Teaching is a thankless job mostly, and teachers have to work hard for little appreciation and even less pay (not counting the teachers in college).

Originally Posted by rtaylor61

I think one positive step would be to re-introduce discipline into school systems. And I'm talking serious board swinging!

RT

Ya know, when I was a kid that's the way it worked. And nobody was hurt in any way other than their egos.

Today, if a public school teacher even touches a student they risk a problem. That's unfortunate because younger children need contact with their teachers... hugs and pats on the head (so to speak). Most teachers are reluctant to do that anymore for fear of getting in trouble. And in a discipline sense, a teacher today will avoid touching a child in any way. In the old days, a teacher would never hesitate to grab a misbehaving child's arm and lead/push them to a chair and tell them to sit there and be quiet, or to intervene in a fight and pull the kids apart. If a teacher did any of those things today and little Johnny complains to the principal or his parents the teacher will certainly get some disciplinary action and risks being fired if the parents complain. Today most schools have a discipline program that puts the majority of the onus on the parent because the school gets in trouble if they really discipline the child. But most parents don't get that, many still believe the school is administering the discipline, and many are pretty uninvolved in their kids lives and seemingly don't care until something catastrophic occurs. Most kids are smart and they know how to play the system if they as so inclined. They quickly figure out that the school is pretty much powerless to really discipline them. And they know that their parents are busy and won't pay much attention to what's going on, so they can feed them a line of BS... and bingo.. the kid is pretty much in control of their own world. By the time a kid gets that job at McDonalds that edk442 spoke about they've become a master of manipulation and believe they can do whatever they want whenever they want.

I think the reality is that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to administering discipline. Some kids respond to being sent to time-out but absolutely rebel at being paddled. Others are just the opposite. And of course a few don't respond to anything. But regardless of the disciplinary action, ALL authority figures need to be able to consistently hold the child accountable... not just the parents. And we NEED authority figures, lots of them! Teachers, neighbors, relatives, etc. I don't often agree with Hillary Clinton, but I do when she says "it takes a village to raise a child". We've given our young kids too much responsibility and independence. We expect them to grow up and act like adults long before they've had a chance to understand and appreciate the cultural and social norms and expectations of our society.

Man, it's a strange feeling - it feels good to know that my fiancee, my parents and I aren't the only ones who see these things, but at the same time, it feels bad to know that my fiancee, my parents and I aren't the only ones who see these things. It means that things really ARE this bad, and I'm not just off my rocker.

Parents aren't allowed to discipline their kids anymore. Well, the ones that care enough to do so aren't allowed to anymore. I remember when I was a kid, you'd see parents lecturing or yelling at their kids in public. Once or twice, I remember kids getting an outright spanking on the spot! If you even talk harshly to your kids within earshot of someone, you'd best be looking over your shoulder for CPS to come and take your kids away!

Joe - what district does your wife teach at? I couldn't believe my eyes when I read your original post! I have two kids in the Arizona public school system, and I'm just curious if it's from the same district. I could see it happening; it seems that the middle-to-upper-class parents are the worst offenders. And the schools don't help! Everything revolves around those damn AIMS tests! The administrators seem to want teachers to teach nothing except what it'll take to get passing grades on the AIMS exams rather than what'll help prepare them for real life. If the curriculum I was taught growing up was still around, AIMS would be a breeze! They challenged us to learn! By the time I was in sixth grade, I was testing at a graduated high-school senior level on all of those placement tests! My sixth grade teacher was a real hard-ass. He used to throw erasers at kids that were not paying attention or misbehaving (not directly at them, more at their desks). He was also teaching grammar and such out of college textbooks, and we were all getting it, so you can't tell me that kids can't learn stuff that's a little more challenging!

One of the many problems plaguing our society is that people, especially kids, are addicted to choice. It used to be, "Behave, or else!" Now kids, and often adults as well, can choose to behave or not, because there is no "or else"! It's the same with work ethic - the McDonald's story given here - those morons chose to drink (most likely underage) knowing that they'd be hung over, and then they chose not to deal with the consequences of their actions. That girl probably had a dozen or so pairs of shoes she could've worn to work, but because she couldn't find the ones she wanted, she chose not to go to work, either that or just outright lied to get out of work. They didn't look at going to a job that they supposedly committed to doing as a have-to-do issue! People don't take any responsibility for their actions anymore. It's always someone else's fault. They pressured me to drink/keep drinking. I had nothing to do with it. Sure, I put the glass out there for more liquor to be poured into. Sure, I'm the one who put it up to my mouth and swallowed. But it's their fault for telling me to do it. BTW, I'm not knocking drinking. I've been known to enjoy a few drinks from time to time, but I enjoy it responsibly!

One final note - I once thought about being a teacher, but I just don't see it happening the way things are now. I wouldn't even make it to the aforementioned 10-year mark before losing my patience. God help us if things don't change.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Josh - it's the same in tertiary education in Australia. Since we removed technical colleges (where trades and vocational training were taught) and made Universities money making enterprises, standards have dropped. I admit straight up that I'm an elitist when it comes to degrees. I feel they should mean something more than a glorified attendance certificate.

I regularly have to explain to my employers why I fail over 25% of my statistical theory class. I tell them flat out that there's a minimum standard I require from third year students, and that I'm usually being generous only failing, say, 30% of them. I'm then required to put in writing a full justification of my assessment, every time. I can tell you, it's tempting to just give up and lower the bar, but I refuse! Tough love never hurt anyone in the long run, except perhaps the one dishing it out...

Anyway, I'm ranting.

James.

A little off topic here but you should save your written justification and use the same one every term. I bet it would take the admins a decade or two to figure it out.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

A little off topic here but you should save your written justification and use the same one every term. I bet it would take the admins a decade or two to figure it out.

That could work - but I'm an eternal optimist. One of these days I'll get a class that all pass (I have a dream).

I was talking to my brother last night - he's a primary school teacher. He's taught at a remote western NSW school for the past 11 years. He said that this year is the best of his life, teaching-wise. Great group of children, but more importantly from his point of view, a great group of parents. They take an active role in their children's learning, support him (my brother) as opposed to working against him, re-enforce their kids learning at home, and all contact him regularly to find out what's going on and how they can help.

He actually passed up an opportunity for a better paid, more supervisory/less teaching job so he could continue to teach his class and work with such great parents. He sounded the happiest I've ever heard him during the past 11 years. Just goes to show how far a little support can go.

This is not a swipe at anyone who doesn't teach, but I reckon they should change the old saying to "Those that can, do. Those that care, teach."

James.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Tough love never hurt anyone in the long run, except perhaps the one dishing it out...

As a child, I clearly remember telling my mother that I was sorry I broke her vase. And right before she hit me, I just as clearly remember her telling me it didn't matter how sorry I was... the vase was still broken. A while later in life I was an engineering manager... absolutely one of the best pieces of advice I ever got was "you never do anyone a favor by cutting them a break".

The wisdom in these have proven themselves to me thousands of times... not just in management and business dealings, but in all facets of life. When something is wrong, its wrong... and you shouldn't excuse it as right or ok. And excuses, no matter how valid, will not change the fact that it's wrong. I think one of the major failures of society today is that we allow our younger people to excuse their failures and bad decision making as "OK" if they have an excuse.