Thread: Nazi SS monument in Canada

The question is, who gets to decide?

You?

The swastika had been used for thousands of years as a sacred symbol, the Nazis appropriated it and now no one can use it for fear of a racist label.

Do we ban the colors Red and Blue, how far does it go?

Originally Posted by Euclid440

The question is, who gets to decide?

You?

The swastika had been used for thousands of years as a sacred symbol, the Nazis appropriated it and now no one can use it for fear of a racist label.

Do we ban the colors Red and Blue, how far does it go?

Again, non-sequitur. It is not a monument to a symbol, it is a monument to an SS division.

Many attempts have been made to reclaim the swastika as a symbol of peace and unity. I once contributed a photo of floor tiles in a swastika pattern from my university (built pre-1930s) to a book about the history of the design. I knew an artist who had tattooed himself head-to-toe with swastikas as part of his life mission to rehabilitate the meaning of the symbol. So I'm very familiar both with the symbol's ancient meanings across many cultures, and recent efforts to educate as to its original meanings. None of these efforts have had any traction. IMHO, none of them will for centuries, if ever.

As for colours, they exist in nature, we are surrounded by them. There is a huge difference between a group or movement adopting a colour and a group adopting a man-made symbol as an emblem. We can make a conscious decision not to adopt or celebrate a man-made symbol. The same cannot be said about naturally-occurring colours. As I said, I am well aware of the history of the swastika and its positive meanings throughout history across many, many cultures. But the crimes now associated with it were so egregious, that they and the symbol cannot easily be extricated. I can live the rest of my life without swastikas in my life. The same cannot be said about any particular colour.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

The question is, who gets to decide?

You?

The swastika had been used for thousands of years as a sacred symbol, the Nazis appropriated it and now no one can use it for fear of a racist label.

Do we ban the colors Red and Blue, how far does it go?

Look what you are talking about has nothing to do with a monument to an SS Division. To memorialise an SS Division is just plain wrong. Turns out there are no Nazi symbols on the monument or mention of the 14th SS Division. The writing on the monument is mostly in Ukrainian with a few words in English. The monument is for the 1st Ukrainian Division of the Ukrainian National Army which is what the 14th SS Division was renamed before surrendering to the allies. Wonder why they renamed the 14th SS Division before surrendering? Still leaves a bad taste in my mouth to have a thinly disguised monument to an SS Division in my country. So, yes I get to decide.

Bob

Bob while no one is in disagreement that there shouldn’t be any nazi war memorials in Canada. I can imagine religious Ukrainians could view this as a potential hate crime because it portrays them as wait for it “nazi’s”. It also is in church grounds.. if someone spray painted things on a mosque or synagogue they would also be investigated as potential hate crimes.

I’m sure if enough people raise concern they might take it down.

Originally Posted by s0litarys0ldier

Bob while no one is in disagreement that there shouldn’t be any nazi war memorials in Canada. I can imagine religious Ukrainians could view this as a potential hate crime because it portrays them as wait for it “nazi’s”. It also is in church grounds.. if someone spray painted things on a mosque or synagogue they would also be investigated as potential hate crimes.

I’m sure if enough people raise concern they might take it down.

If the graffiti has been applied to a Ukrainian Orthodox church, or to another monument or building broadly associated with Ukrainian Orthodoxy, then I could understand that reaction. But again, it was applied to a specific monument to an SS Division, not to anything else in the cemetery. At least that's my understanding of the situation - please correct me if I'm wrong.

The division was accused of carrying out massacres of civilians and was singled out for praise by none other than Himmler. This monument, and others like it, should not exist in Canada.

Incidentally, now that the purpose of the monument has been clarified, it appears that it is now being investigated as an act of vandalism, and not a hate crime. That seems appropriate.

Originally Posted by Cangooner

If the graffiti has been applied to a Ukrainian Orthodox church, or to another monument or building broadly associated with Ukrainian Orthodoxy, then I could understand that reaction. But again, it was applied to a specific monument to an SS Division, not to anything else in the cemetery. At least that's my understanding of the situation - please correct me if I'm wrong.

The division was accused of carrying out massacres of civilians and was singled out for praise by none other than Himmler. This monument, and others like it, should not exist in Canada.

Incidentally, now that the purpose of the monument has been clarified, it appears that it is now being investigated as an act of vandalism, and not a hate crime. That seems appropriate.

Still rubs you the wrong way even being there.

I also would like to know why a Christian Church allow it to be erected on church property. The Ukrainian Catholic Church of Canada must have known the genesis of the 1st Ukrainian Army Division.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

I also would like to know why a Christian Church allow it to be erected on church property. The Ukrainian Catholic Church of Canada must have known the genesis of the 1st Ukrainian Army Division.

Bob

This is just a guess.... Christian Church = Jesus. I think he may have said to love your enemies, but I'm not sure and they are just practicing this saying?

Kind of Creepy.....

I can imagine the thing was created by Christian Ukrainian immigrants to Canada after the war whose fathers, brothers and uncles Were in that division during the war. They hated Russia enough to join in.
In their churchyard for their consumption.
The alliances and broken agreements/promises as Germany and Russia were party to is an interesting study.
Finland is also a good study. Russia had it's share of enemies. Still do.
Betcha you could easily find monuments to Finns who fought on the side of Germany in Finland.
It was a thing. Then there was Italy! Flip/flop! Some tiny village there sent all their men to fight for something with someone.
May be some there in corners. Old Cemeteries are interesting. The good and the bad.

Unusual things like that are everywhere. Not so relevant now, but still a part of history.
Likely was not hurting a thing until someone wondered in and noticed.

Not sure about "not hurting a thing".
The monument was erected not immediately after the war, but in the 80's. By then the Waffen-SS as a whole (14th division included) was declared to be a criminal organization at the Nuremberg Trials. In a speech to the soldiers of the this particular division, Heinrich Himmler stated: "Your homeland has become so much more beautiful since you have lost – on our initiative, I must say – those residents who were so often a dirty blemish on Galicia's good name, namely the Jews ... I know that if I ordered you to liquidate the Poles ... I would be giving you permission to do what you are eager to do anyway."
If in some private cemetery in TX they'd find a monument to the "brave warriors" of, say, the Taliban - who I'm sure also have brothers and sisters mourning them - would you say it's "not hurting a thing"?