The Ukraine Situation

Yea once the EMP goes off the unlucky ones will be the survivors. If you can live like it was 1850 then you're OK except for ruined water supplies and most game dying and nothing growing. Got a bunker with a years supply of provisions and enough firepower to deal with invaders? If you do good luck.

Estimates are under those circumstances in 1 year 90% of the U.S population will be dead.

You had better hope the other side does not think a nuclear war is survivable either. That was the logic, if you want to call it that, behind the theory of MAD, Mutually Assured Destruction. It sounds more professional than calling it a Mexican Stand Off.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

You had better hope the other side does not think a nuclear war is survivable either. That was the logic, if you want to call it that, behind the theory of MAD, Mutually Assured Destruction. It sounds more professional than calling it a Mexican Stand Off.

Bob

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The problem is that's a dated view based on only a few powers with rational heads of state having nukes. If an outfit like N Korea decided to attack what can you possibly do to a country like that. They have no real infrastructure. The population is already starving and Rocketman will be safe somewhere. He has little to lose.

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Originally Posted by STF

Respectfully Glen, I spent 5 years learning about this stuff and I can assure you that there is nowhere safe in the US or Canada, in fact there are very very few places in the entire world that are safe in the event of a nuclear conflict.

If in fact you are in a safe area which you're not, what will you eat when all crops are radioactive, all animals are dead of radiation sickness from either fallout or eating the radioactive grass etc. Cockroaches are immune to radioactivity so i suppose you could learn to like the taste of them. The sun is blocked out and there's a new ice age, hope you have a warm coat.

Where is it you are Idaho is it or Colarado, either way i hope your ranch is a safe haven and the ice age stops at your boundary fence with the sun shing directly at your house. Even if that ridiculous scenario happened, how many people will arrive at your door for your food and shelter, I hope you have been stockpiling ammo.

Their are people that mistakenly say that you could come out of your fallout shelter after 2 weeks - assuming your fallout shelter has air scrubbers or you gonna die from the fallout or suffocate if it's airtight. It may be true that fallout will stop coming down within 2 weeks but the ground that your walking on may be radioactive for thousands of years. Just as well it will be buried under the ice and glaciers of the new ice age eh.

The US is a primary target, forget the government targets, remember how many Nuclear Power Stations you have and they are all primary targets, same goes for Canada and many other countries.

It was you that actually recommended that I read Last Ship, I didn't learn too much but it was made clear that it was very difficult to find anywhere safe. I know it was fiction and some really important facts were overlooked but as far as finding somewhere safe goes it was pretty close and don't forget your other recommedation "One Minute After". A nuke doesn't have to be detonated above the atmospere to create an electromagnetic pulse, any nuke will do that - no power - no fire service, Ambulance, no cars, campfire on your front yard because your cooker does'nt work and you would be cooking whatever you can catch because your fridge is off, oh no that won't work because whatever you can catch and cook will be radio active.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Yea once the EMP goes off the unlucky ones will be the survivors. If you can live like it was 1850 then you're OK except for ruined water supplies and most game dying and nothing growing. Got a bunker with a years supply of provisions and enough firepower to deal with invaders? If you do good luck.

Estimates are under those circumstances in 1 year 90% of the U.S population will be dead.

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Originally Posted by BobH

You had better hope the other side does not think a nuclear war is survivable either. That was the logic, if you want to call it that, behind the theory of MAD, Mutually Assured Destruction. It sounds more professional than calling it a Mexican Stand Off.

Bob

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I am rather glad that so many feel that way

Less competition for limited resources

Respectfully 5 years is just not very long,

Like I said I don't care to discuss it or argue it, I don't honestly care what you think or believe.. you do you I'll do me if you don't mind


Back to Ukraine

Biden and his mumbles left a ton of clean up to do

The worst one was the one about Putin needing to be taken out of power, that and almost the same BS from Lindsey Graham is incredibly dangerous and stupid..
The statement about responding in kind to a Chem/Bio attack was almost as bad

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The problem is that's a dated view based on only a few powers with rational heads of state having nukes. If an outfit like N Korea decided to attack what can you possibly do to a country like that. They have no real infrastructure. The population is already starving and Rocketman will be safe somewhere. He has little to lose.

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Yup, that is why I said it was the logic. Far too many mini players for than now.

Bob

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I am rather glad that so many feel that way

Less competition for limited resources

Respectfully 5 years is just not very long,

Like I said I don't care to discuss it or argue it, I don't honestly care what you think or believe.. you do you I'll do me if you don't mind


Back to Ukraine

Biden and his mumbles left a ton of clean up to do

The worst one was the one about Putin needing to be taken out of power, that and almost the same BS from Lindsey Graham is incredibly dangerous and stupid..
The statement about responding in kind to a Chem/Bio attack was almost as bad

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Unfortunately, you can't escape the threat that NBCW is part and parcel of the possible outcomes in the war in Ukraine. You can't discuss one without the others.

Bob

i don't think Putin could be oused or replaced unless he actually dies of some illness or assisination because I seem to remember that he made himself President for life.

For what it’s worth:

Attachment 340598

Yea, it's been said many ways but it's true that old men send young people off to die in wars the old create. It's been that way since people lived in caves and threw rocks at passing hunting parties "encroaching" on "their" territory.

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Originally Posted by JBHoren

We can talk talk talk about how the Russian military "sucks", but however much it does, it's (a) better trained than the Ukrainian forces; and (b) it greatly outnumbers the Ukrainian forces in manpower and materiel.

Today, it's too late for Zelensky, too late for Ukraine. Now all he gets to do is try to have some input into their terms of surrender.

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It's a brave man that will predict the outcome of this war, but subsequent events have shown that the Russian forces have been weak in leadership, strategy and tactics.
The 331st Guards Parachute Regiment, supposedly one of Russia's most elite regiments, was sent packing minus their senior officers who were killed.
It's likely that Russia has already 'won' by killing Ukrainian civilians with missiles but so far their soldiers and airmen have been comprehensively outclassed militarily by the the Ukrainians. I'm not sure we will see Ukraine capitulate anytime soon.

It's surprising how many British fighters mostly ex-military are fighting in Ukraine, makes me proud to think we have guys of this calibre in the UK.

Yes, never underestimate what a small but unified country can do against a much larger military invader. That is especially so as the Russian army appears to have little esprit de corps and a lot appear to not want to be there in the first place. At this point it's obviously not been a cake walk for the previously much vaunted, in the west, Russian army. It is still anyone's guess how it will eventually turn out but come what may Ukraine will have acquitted itself extremely well.

Bob

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Originally Posted by celticcrusader

It's surprising how many British fighters mostly ex-military are fighting in Ukraine, makes me proud to think we have guys of this calibre in the UK.

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I just caught a partial sound bite that Boris Johnson went to Kiev to meet with Zelensky, good for him

Chalk one up for the Ukrainians. They apparently sank the guided missile cruiser Muskova, flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet, after hitting it with with a cruise missile or two. Replacing it with one of the two surviving Slava class guided missile cruisers appears unlikely as Turkey is probably will not let them enter into the Black Sea. Could become interesting if Russia decides to force the issue in a direct confrontation with a NATO member.

Bob

During my heady days of Computer War Gaming hehehe I can't count the times I sank that ship under her first name Slava in those battles

It is a big deal she was sunk

The renamed Slava is not to be confused with the original Muskova which was a helicopter carrier. That is the one I remember being the Muskova and initiall thought I had lost my mind when I first saw what was now called the Muskova.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskva...copter_carrier

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Chalk one up for the Ukrainians.

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The Russians say it wasn't the Ukraine, it was a special reef building operation.

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Originally Posted by welshwizard

The Russians say it wasn't the Ukraine, it was a special reef building operation.

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Ah that explains it then LoL

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Originally Posted by welshwizard

The Russians say it wasn't the Ukraine, it was a special reef building operation.

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Yea, the Russians say a lot of things that seem to be absolute sh_te don't they. Their press releases are right out of a skit on SNL.

Bob

The Russian silliness continues and I am sure other countries had more names added to the stop list.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...9067a5dad3b372

The way Putin is going there may come a time when Russia will have no say on who enters the country.

Bob

Official now

Finland and Sweden apply for NATO membership

Both these countries bring serious military capabilities with them, the exact opposite of what Putin wanted

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Official now

Finland and Sweden apply for NATO membership

Both these countries bring serious military capabilities with them, the exact opposite of what Putin wanted

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Let's hope Turkey doesn't throw a spanner (wrench) in the works eh?

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Originally Posted by STF

Let's hope Turkey doesn't throw a spanner (wrench) in the works eh?

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They are doing some grumbling :p but in the end having those two in NATO is a rather large boost

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

They are doing some grumbling :p but in the end having those two in NATO is a rather large boost

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I think it is going to be a little more complicated with Turkey than most would think. Turkey is a member of NATO and controls the very important choke point that separates the Mediterranean Sea and the Black Sea. That may make Turkey important to NATO if for no other reason. Turkey is not a member of the EU despite trying to join for years and being rejected/stalled on the issue. Turkey has already bought batteries of Russian S-400 surface to air missiles to the great displeasure of NATO.

The question, to me, is Turkey trying to leverage it's admission to the EU by raising objections to Finland and Sweden joining NATO? How far are they willing to go on the issue considering they already have bought Russian weapons directly against NATO's expressed wishes? Time is of the essence concerning getting Finland and Sweden into NATO given the current situation with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Any delays in doing that are not a very good idea at this point. I think there is a little more to it than just some grumbling from Turkey. I really hope I am wrong though.

Bob

Turkey is a problem country. It's leader ain't too far off from being like Orban and he tries to throw it's weight around.

In a way it's almost a rogue nation, very unpredictable.

News last night was that Turkey withdrew any objections to Sweden and Finland joining NATO

It's about time they ceased objecting. I wonder what Turkey got as a pacifier to drop those objections?

Bob

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

News last night was that Turkey withdrew any objections to Sweden and Finland joining NATO

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Looks like Finland and Sweden have now been officially invited to join NATO.

Referring to the last words of the NATO Secretary in Europe - If Ukraine falls and Russia attacks NATO countries, NATO must prepare for several dozen years of war. For the Baltic countries such as Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, this probably means several dozen years of occupation and war, despite their alliance in NATO. It's the same as in 1939, when the Nazis attacked Poland - Western Europe did nothing. Several dozen years of war = no one will do anything immediately.

Really easy for us in the US to pontificate and play arm chair general. Folks like our new friend in Poland have a much more dire outlook. They have a much more stark reality than we do.

Poland seems to be one of the countries that has a realistic outlook of what may come

Poland has been increasing their military power and economic power for sometime now, Might be the shining star in Eastern Europe