The Ukraine Situation

I just read a piece by a retired General in the UK. I don't remember his name or even where I read it so I can't provide a link.

The long and short of it is that he was of the opinion that although he understands why NATO or the US don't want to enforce a no fly zone over Ukraine, he thinks we should worry less about Putin's threat of using Nukes, except possibly strategic ones because he's not as stupid as people think and he knows that if he actually pressed the big button it would also be the end of him and Russia too.

He feels that eventually we (the west) will have to enforce a no fly zone and it basically boils down to do we want to fight Russia now or do we want to fight them later because we are going to fight them so perhaps a no fly zone would let the west give Putin a bloody nose and finish him while the Russian troops are mostly in Ukraine and in a mess.

He also felt that if Putin fired even one small strategic nuke in Ukraine, the west will immediately get it's boots dirty with Ukrainian mud.

Incidentally, I saw on CNN last night that Putin is asking Syria to send troops to reinforce his own in Ukraine.

Putin is placing demands in diplomatic negotiations the other side can't possibly accept. Probably stalling for more time to get his military rolling again. With a diplomatic solution out of the question barring Putin doing a 180 and changing his diplomatic negotiating stance going to war with Russia, now or later, is the only other solution. That involves gambling on Putin being sane enough not to resort to nukes. Enforcing a no fly zone over Ukraine would be the start of such a war.

Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by STF

I just read a piece by a retired General in the UK. I don't remember his name or even where I read it so I can't provide a link.

The long and short of it is that he was of the opinion that although he understands why NATO or the US don't want to enforce a no fly zone over Ukraine, he thinks we should worry less about Putin's threat of using Nukes, except possibly strategic ones because he's not as stupid as people think and he knows that if he actually pressed the big button it would also be the end of him and Russia too.

He feels that eventually we (the west) will have to enforce a no fly zone and it basically boils down to do we want to fight Russia now or do we want to fight them later because we are going to fight them so perhaps a no fly zone would let the west give Putin a bloody nose and finish him while the Russian troops are mostly in Ukraine and in a mess.

He also felt that if Putin fired even one small strategic nuke in Ukraine, the west will immediately get it's boots dirty with Ukrainian mud.

Incidentally, I saw on CNN last night that Putin is asking Syria to send troops to reinforce his own in Ukraine.

---

He isn't the only one, quite a few are saying "Enough" to the kid glove approach to Putin,

My problem is I don't think we have strong/smart enough Western leaders right now to play this dangerous game with Putin...
Militarily NATO could take out the Russian forces in Ukraine in a couple of days using just Airpower, and Putin knows it..
Unfortunately his only recourse would be Tactical Nukes, and he might just very well do it :(

I personally don't think Putin will ever start a Nuclear war. I think he's discovered how effective the threats are and this is not the first time he's done it.

I think that firstly even he doesn't want to be responsible for starting something that will destroy the world, secondly there's every chance that however carefully chosen the Russians that man the silos are they may realize what they are being asked to do and just not. Last but not least, Putin has to know that the west (US) can easily press their own button before the Russian Missiles hit.
It doesn't matter who has the most when it comes to overkill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

He isn't the only one, quite a few are saying "Enough" to the kid glove approach to Putin,

My problem is I don't think we have strong/smart enough Western leaders right now to play this dangerous game with Putin...
Militarily NATO could take out the Russian forces in Ukraine in a couple of days using just Airpower, and Putin knows it..
Unfortunately his only recourse would be Tactical Nukes, and he might just very well do it :(

---

I don't think it's that risky actually. I think that as former KGB Putin is proficient at threatening behavior but, I think that's all it is and we should call his bluff. Tactical Nukes are a real possibility but I think the attidude should be , dare ya, go on do it, and Russia will cease to exist, go on, go on, do ya feel lucky Putin.

You never know, he might just dig a hole and hide in it like Saddam did.

Putin ain't hiding or be digging any hole.

He's in the catbird seat right now. The west won't take any direct action. heck, they can't even agree to send Ukraine some ancient jets.

He doesn't care about his soldiers. History has shown Russian upper class has never cared about their fighting men. They are nothing but canon fodder. Russians don't even know what's going on.

He will continue to plod along until he reaches his goal ot gets what he wants diplomatically.

The only question is how far can he be squeezed before he is backed into a corner and does what?

Also what happens when American Volunteers are captured by the Russians and are paraded around for propaganda. What does the U.S do?

The chances for this spreading increase with every escalation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by STF

I don't think it's that risky actually. I think that as former KGB Putin is proficient at threatening behavior but, I think that's all it is and we should call his bluff. Tactical Nukes are a real possibility but I think the attidude should be , dare ya, go on do it, and Russia will cease to exist, go on, go on, do ya feel lucky Putin.

You never know, he might just dig a hole and hide in it like Saddam did.

---

If they do call Putin's bluff, I do hope to God your estimate of low risk is correct. Right now it is Putin who is doing the daring and so far there is no "no fly zone" and no declaration of war on Russia by any western nations. That reinforces his low risk assessment of the consequences of invading Ukraine. There is nothing so far to change his mind on the risk factor. He is forcing other nations to call his bluff and holding pat on that. The ball is solely in our court. I am sure as hell glad I do not have to make that decision is all I can say. Interesting times.

Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by STF

I don't think it's that risky actually. I think that as former KGB Putin is proficient at threatening behavior but, I think that's all it is and we should call his bluff. Tactical Nukes are a real possibility but I think the attidude should be , dare ya, go on do it, and Russia will cease to exist, go on, go on, do ya feel lucky Putin.

You never know, he might just dig a hole and hide in it like Saddam did.

---

Yea go ahead and use nukes. Not only will Russia disappear, but the rest of the planet will be engulfed by this type of stupidness!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johntoad57

Yea go ahead and use nukes. Not only will Russia disappear, but the rest of the planet will be engulfed by this type of stupidness!!!

---

I completely agree, I just think that Putin is all mouth and trousers.

Keep in mind nobody really thought we would be seeing Modern European cities being shelled and bombed, ahead of a full invasion sweeping across all of Ukraine, only two weeks ago..

Yet here we are...

I'm surprised how many British people civilians and ex-military are going there to fight alongside the Ukrainians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Keep in mind nobody really thought we would be seeing Modern European cities being shelled and bombed, ahead of a full invasion sweeping across all of Ukraine, only two weeks ago..

Yet here we are...

---

I agree completely, bear in mind that this isn't the first time, or the first time he has made Nuclear threats. Rember Crimea or Afganistan. My personal opinion is that just as i said that we can fight Russia now or we can fight them later, Putin may feel the same and invade a Nato country to force our hand.

In a new twist to the Ukraine war, the miscreants of the Canadian truckers so called Freedom Convoy are being feed another line of BS on social media. Seems the fools are being retooled for another cause.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other...?ocid=msedgntp

If I never see another truckers so called "Freedom Convoy" it won't be soon enough.

Bob

2 million refugees, that is more than the population of Idaho, about the same as what came across the southern border illegally last year in the US..

It is an unimaginable burden on the surrounding countries, especially when 1/2 are children...

Makes ya think

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

2 million refugees, that is more than the population of Idaho, about the same as what came across the southern border illegally last year in the US..

It is an unimaginable burden on the surrounding countries, especially when 1/2 are children...

Makes ya think

---

NYC the Manhattan and Brooklyn bridges were closed to traffic because of a protest for "excluded workers fund" to the tune of 3 billion dollars. Strange though they didn't come down on them like they did to the truckers. Oh and I almost forgot they want $500 MILLION for free healthcare. I'm going to central America and DEMAND more rights and government assistance than they give their own citizen. And if they don't give it to me then I will say they discriminating against gringos. One other thing. If an American wanted to retire to these countries he/she would have to have $1500 a month in income outside of the country. Talk about fairness. Lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill31521

NYC the Manhattan and Brooklyn bridges were closed to traffic because of a protest for "excluded workers fund" to the tune of 3 billion dollars. Strange though they didn't come down on them like they did to the truckers. Oh and I almost forgot they want $500 MILLION for free healthcare. I'm going to central America and DEMAND more rights and government assistance than they give their own citizen. And if they don't give it to me then I will say they discriminating against gringos. One other thing. If an American wanted to retire to these countries he/she would have to have $1500 a month in income outside of the country. Talk about fairness. Lol.

---

I take your point but I have to ask, how many weeks are the protesters camping out blocking the city and bridges with their engines running and their horns blowing? If their doing those things and still the city is not coming down on them, NYC must be a lovely place, much more tolerant than famously tolerant Canada.

On a final note, it does seem unfair that you can't retire to Central/South America without a fairly large monthly income, do a search and see how much I would have to bring in if I as a retiree wanted to move to the US.

There is no retiree or silver green card in the US so if a retiree without an employer, family in the US or has refugee status wants to live full time in America they would need an EB-5 Investor Visa just the same as as anyone else. I know of a an Englishman here that lives in the States. It would be interesting to hear his experience.

https://www.canadatousa.com/immigrat...ng-to-the-usa/

Just my humble opinion of course, no disrespect intended.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by STF

I take your point but I have to ask, how many weeks are the protesters camping out blocking the city and bridges with their engines running and their horns blowing? If their doing those things and still the city is not coming down on them, NYC must be a lovely place, much more tolerant than famously tolerant Canada.

On a final note, it does seem unfair that you can't retire to Central/South America without a fairly large monthly income, do a search and see how much I would have to bring in if I as a retiree wanted to move to the US.

There is no retiree or silver green card in the US so if a retiree without an employer, family in the US or has refugee status wants to live full time in America they would need an EB-5 Investor Visa just the same as as anyone else. I know of a an Englishman here that lives in the States. It would be interesting to hear his experience.

https://www.canadatousa.com/immigrat...ng-to-the-usa/

Just my humble opinion of course, no disrespect intended.

---

The disruption is our countries resources being given away while our disabled veterans are sleeping under bridges. How much money does it cost to feed cloth and house and then add the cost of border patrol and court time etc. Jails etc. It's much more than you think. Billions and billions of dollars year after year.

Yea and when the American retires to some country in S or Central America he has to worry about unstable Govts, crummy healthcare, crime and a host of other problems. Living is a paradise in your compound you are afraid to leave.

Last I heard no Central American Country has an Illegal problem. The only country with an illegal problem like us is Mexico with folks mainly from Guatemala.

Also the excluded workers protest lasted a few hours on the bridges and was maybe 300 people.

Millions of people live in Manhattan. Only a few hours? Lol. Only 300 extortionists trying to shake down the taxpayer. 30 years ago it was young men looking for work. Now it's middle age women with 4 children. Some of which are not even theirs. I need a passport to get into another country. And they know who I am. Cradle to grave here as you know. There is no reliable way to know who is coming and for what reason. Actually they are coming for free stuff. Otherwise they wouldn't come. Theres a severe labor shortage in certain occupations. They aren't coming for work. Otherwise there would be no shortage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by STF

I take your point but I have to ask, how many weeks are the protesters camping out blocking the city and bridges with their engines running and their horns blowing? If their doing those things and still the city is not coming down on them, NYC must be a lovely place, much more tolerant than famously tolerant Canada.

---

Yes, my point exactly. How does Putin so far locking up roughly 13,000 protesters for marching who were not camped out in Red Square for going on a month compare with how Trudeau treated the truckers in Canada. Great Russian disinformation in support of Putin and his war in Ukraine. Had the truckers protested for a day and then left having made their point nothing would have happened to them unlike in Putin's Russia.

Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobH

Yes, my point exactly. How does Putin so far locking up roughly 13,000 protesters for marching who were not camped out in Red Square for going on a month compare with how Trudeau treated the truckers in Canada. Great Russian disinformation in support of Putin and his war in Ukraine. Had the truckers protested for a day and then left having made their point nothing would have happened to them unlike in Putin's Russia.

Bob

---

Call me cynical but I see no difference between politicians worldwide. They all have an agenda.
The only difference is at what point in time & to what degree they flex their muscles via police & /or military.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill31521

Millions of people live in Manhattan. Only a few hours? Lol. Only 300 extortionists trying to shake down the taxpayer. 30 years ago it was young men looking for work. Now it's middle age women with 4 children. Some of which are not even theirs. I need a passport to get into another country. And they know who I am. Cradle to grave here as you know. There is no reliable way to know who is coming and for what reason. Actually they are coming for free stuff. Otherwise they wouldn't come. Theres a severe labor shortage in certain occupations. They aren't coming for work. Otherwise there would be no shortage.

---

I don't want to start here what happened to that other thread but you know I worked 30 years for the INS. I was both on the benefits end and a Special Agent so I know a little about the folks coming into the U.S. I worked in NYC, Los Angeles, San Diego, here in New Mexico and along the border.

No matter what you want to talk about there are always those looking to take advantage of it whether it's contractors in the USA gaming the system to line their pockets or U.S citizens applying for free money cheating the system and in that vein there are aliens who are crooks and criminals and cheats.

However, whether you want to believe it or not the average illegal is an honest hardworking person looking to better themselves. Most do jobs you wouldn't do and they work for lower wages and are taken advantage of by U.S Citizens. Most have no desire to stay in the U.S and would rather be home. Most send money home every month to their families.

I could tell you about the overturned vans I've encountered with aliens desperate to come here and they've wound up dead on the side of the road. Maybe the trailers loaded with 30 or 40 aliens abandoned in the Arizona summer with many dead or dying. I can't think of any other country where that would happen. Can you?

But, if you care to believe they are all bad people looking to commit crimes and steal you can continue to do that.

No, I don't think we should have open borders. I've deported, prosecuted, imprisoned and sent back scores of them. That's a failing of every administration going back 40 years or more.

Plus, we haven't even touched on those who come here legally from every country in the world and just never leave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Call me cynical but I see no difference between politicians worldwide. They all have an agenda.
The only difference is at what point in time & to what degree they flex their muscles via police & /or military.

---

Well, that's the whole thing, degree. What's the difference between a poor person and a rich person? It's degree of wealth. What's the difference between Hitler and Putin, it's degree.

In the end it means nothing. You judge each thing on it's own merits. Human history is replete with countries decimating another. Just because it's the 21st century that means nothing. It's just a meaningless number. Human's haven't changed in a million years. They find it very easy to kill members of their own species. The more dissimilar the others are, the easier it gets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Call me cynical but I see no difference between politicians worldwide. They all have an agenda.
The only difference is at what point in time & to what degree they flex their muscles via police & /or military.

---

I am a cynic also. As TBS has said it is the degree to which they are willing to go in deploying the police/military and at what point they are willing to do so. No country at any time has ever allowed citizens to do what they want when they want as that would be anarchy. Again you are back to degrees of freedom that are allowed. There is a hell of a difference between Trudeau and Putin. That is also what separates a dictatorship from a democracy. If we can't tell the difference then we are all in trouble.

Bob

I had this all typed out then I decided screw it go find it yourselves

Search

USA Today,,, Ukrainian biolabs are Russian misinformation
Victoria Nuland, Marco Rubio Ukrainian Biolabs


WTH ???

Well you mean...Agreement Between the
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
and UKRAINE
Signed at Kiev August 29, 2005.

It was meant to stop proliferation of biologic weapons and the U.S granted funds to modernize and make safer labs in Ukraine. The U.S does not run or control them but of course take a grain of truth and turn it into another grand conspiracy first started by Russia and regurgitated by the Putin lovers in the U.S.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Well you mean...Agreement Between the
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
and UKRAINE
Signed at Kiev August 29, 2005.

It was meant to stop proliferation of biologic weapons and the U.S granted funds to modernize and make safer labs in Ukraine. The U.S does not run or control them but of course take a grain of truth and turn it into another grand conspiracy first started by Russia and regurgitated by the Putin lovers in the U.S.

---

Did you watch the exchange ???

Someone explain it to me. How does making biological weapons stop their proliferation ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I don't want to start here what happened to that other thread but you know I worked 30 years for the INS.

---

Foreigner question.

What's the INS?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by STF

Foreigner question.

What's the INS?

---

Foreigner's answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigr...zation_Service

Bob

Regardless of how you view the Ukraine situation from whatever sources you choose to believe, Ukraine is/was an sovereign country at the time of the Russian invasion. The only question is what the rest of the world should/can do to keep Ukraine a sovereign country.

Bob

What I find to be ridiculous is that the MASS buildup of Russian troops on the border with Ukraine has been going on for a long time. If they were involved in arming and aiding Ukraine BEFORE it may have given them pause. Hypothetical of course. We can never know the answer but we know now that doing nothing before was not helpful. And that has been written all over the history books if anyone cares to read it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill31521

What I find to be ridiculous is that the MASS buildup of Russian troops on the border with Ukraine has been going on for a long time. If they were involved in arming and aiding Ukraine BEFORE it may have given them pause. Hypothetical of course. We can never know the answer but we know now that doing nothing before was not helpful. And that has been written all over the history books if anyone cares to read it.

---

Unfortunately holding huge military exercises near another countries border is a common tactic designed to keep the other side on alert and guessing. That was done constantly during the cold war in Europe by Russia and NATO. The majority of the time it turns out to be brinkmanship and not a prelude to invasion. Hindsight being 20/20, it would have been better to have helped the Ukraine militarily while those exercises were going on and not wait for the invasion to begin. We have to deal with the situation as it stands today though.

Bob

Hindsight is 20/20. But they did grab crimea in 2014. So we didn't learn then and we may not learn now. Lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill31521

Hindsight is 20/20. But they did grab crimea in 2014. So we didn't learn then and we may not learn now. Lol.

---

Learn what?

If any large superpower decides to invade another country what is the world going to do? If we invaded Canada what would the world do? Hold meetings? Condemn us? Invade us? Put sanctions on us?

If china invades Taiwan it would be no different.

Nuclear War is no different. All it takes is one world leader to decide well me and my family are safe and enough of my population survives so we could win.

Maybe an EM Pulse weapon over mid america and our electrical grid is fried for good along with Canada and Northern Mexico. The U.S would be back in the 1800s and our population would be around 10% of what it is now within a year or so. Maybe N Korea could use it and Russia and China sit back and laugh their butts off.

By the way INS stands for the Immigration and Naturalization Service which was disbanded and rolled in Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Learn what?

If any large superpower decides to invade another country what is the world going to do? If we invaded Canada what would the world do? Hold meetings? Condemn us? Invade us? Put sanctions on us?

If china invades Taiwan it would be no different.

Nuclear War is no different. All it takes is one world leader to decide well me and my family are safe and enough of my population survives so we could win.

Maybe an EM Pulse weapon over mid america and our electrical grid is fried for good along with Canada and Northern Mexico. The U.S would be back in the 1800s and our population would be around 10% of what it is now within a year or so. Maybe N Korea could use it and Russia and China sit back and laugh their butts off.

By the way INS stands for the Immigration and Naturalization Service which was disbanded and rolled in Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

---

LOL, You lot already invaded Canada, thats why the Whitehouse got painted white to hide the burn marks.

Anyway we are both in NATO so your not allowed to invade us again and we might get in trouble for kicking your butts

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Learn what?

If any large superpower decides to invade another country what is the world going to do? If we invaded Canada what would the world do? Hold meetings? Condemn us? Invade us? Put sanctions on us?

If china invades Taiwan it would be no different.

Nuclear War is no different. All it takes is one world leader to decide well me and my family are safe and enough of my population survives so we could win.

Maybe an EM Pulse weapon over mid america and our electrical grid is fried for good along with Canada and Northern Mexico. The U.S would be back in the 1800s and our population would be around 10% of what it is now within a year or so. Maybe N Korea could use it and Russia and China sit back and laugh their butts off.

By the way INS stands for the Immigration and Naturalization Service which was disbanded and rolled in Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

---

Well your mentality is a defeatist one. There's plenty to do besides letting the biggest kid on the school bus take your lunch money. Give them hell and give as good as you get. And you will fight less battles. The sanctions will cripple Russia if they keep them going long enough. There's ALWAYS something that can be done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill31521

Well your mentality is a defeatist one. There's plenty to do besides letting the biggest kid on the school bus take your lunch money. Give them hell and give as good as you get. And you will fight less battles. The sanctions will cripple Russia if they keep them going long enough. There's ALWAYS something that can be done.

---

Defeatist or realist?

You talk in generalities not specifics. The bully on the school bus doesn't have a nuclear bomb in his pocket.

We've gone pretty far with sanctions and with a country like Russia where the population is being fed a bunch of propaganda you reach a point where sanctions just bring the population together to view the West as the evil ones. Some think that way already. A view is forming where Western Corporations were damaging the "Heart and Soul" of Russia. Good riddens to them. Unless they overthrow him Putin isn't going anywhere and he doesn't care about his soldiers or population.

If nuclear weapons didn't exist the world could march in and throw Russia out but that ain't gonna happen. The nuclear card changes everything. We are in uncharted territory here which is why everyone is walking on eggshells here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Defeatist or realist?

If nuclear weapons didn't exist the world could march in and throw Russia out but that ain't gonna happen. The nuclear card changes everything. We are in uncharted territory here which is why everyone is walking on eggshells here.

---

Yeah everyone except Putin.

Sooner or later we have to act regardless of his threats, he can only hold the whole world's feet to the fire for so long before someone say's sod this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by STF

Yeah everyone except Putin.

Sooner or later we have to act regardless of his threats, he can only hold the whole world's feet to the fire for so long before someone say's sod this.

---

So once again we come to the cost benefit equation.

The question to ask yourself is how good a gambler are you? The stakes may be too high depending on the cost and benefit. If you loose you loose everything.