Thread: Nobel peace prize

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

I think it's fitting --- it goes along with Paris Hilton being picked as a most interesting person in some magazine or crappy music being given a Grammy. I wouldn't expect more actually. I think it has more to do with the topic and the polical correctness of the topic than anything. Even within the realms of environmental awareness, I'm sure someone elsee is more worthy than Al but he is the feel good hollywood tool right now. But I think it's fitting......

Justin

Wasn't Hitler nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize?

I think that pretty much sums it up Justin!

Originally Posted by JMS

I think that pretty much sums it up Justin!

How does the award work anyway? Does anyone know who does the selecting and why the selectees are selected?

Justin

Originally Posted by JMS

This sort of logic is the same logic that rewards a naughty child for finally doing what he should have been doing all along instead of acknowledging the parents tireless work in trying to get the kid to act proper in the first place!

That would be true if Gorbachev had been in power since 1917....Gorbachev had been laying the ground work for removing Soviet troops and influence from eastern Europe since he came to power...all of the Warsaw Pact looked to the Soviets for instructions... Gorbachev slowly stopped issuing them...things began to open up and when he did not send the military into Czechoslovakia and Hungary after the opened their borders, the end was near. It could have been a repeat of 1956 and 1968....or, it could have been a blood bath by anti-communists; instead, only Romania had a violent change of regime. In the end, not even Moscow experienced any violence....Gorbachev was on vacation and Yeltsin and Premier of the Ukraine signed a document dissolving the Soviet Union.

His liberalization policies helped pave the way for the collapse of the Soviet Union (although that is not what he intended)...in hindsight, there were many things that could have been done better, but at least he did more than talk.

Greg

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

How does the award work anyway? Does anyone know who does the selecting and why the selectees are selected?

Justin

All I know is that it is done by a panel who decides who gets it! I have also heard that Al Gore actually lobbied the panel to get the award, which, in my mind, cheapens the award even further! I don't know how accurate that info about Gore is though.

Originally Posted by WireBeard

That would be true if Gorbachev had been in power since 1917....Gorbachev had been laying the ground work for removing Soviet troops and influence from eastern Europe since he came to power...all of the Warsaw Pact looked to the Soviets for instructions... Gorbachev slowly stopped issuing them...things began to open up and when he did not send the military into Czechoslovakia and Hungary after the opened their borders, the end was near. It could have been a repeat of 1956 and 1968....or, it could have been a blood bath by anti-communists; instead, only Romania had a violent change of regime. In the end, not even Moscow experienced any violence....Gorbachev was on vacation and Yeltsin and Premier of the Ukraine signed a document dissolving the Soviet Union.

His liberalization policies helped pave the way for the collapse of the Soviet Union (although that is not what he intended)...in hindsight, there were many things that could have been done better, but at least he did more than talk.

Greg

I suspect he did these things because he is a chess player and knew the jig was up!
It took many leaders over time to put the USSR in the state it was that forced Gorbachchevs hand! And it took many leaders to put the US in such a position that Reagan could put the right amount of pressure to help knock over that house of cards known as the USSR!

To be fair, he won it for more than just the movie. He won it for championing a cause which is becoming increasingly dramatic. Lake Superior is down 2 feet this year. That's THE largest fresh water lake in the world down by hundreds of billions of litres of water for the only time in recorded history and that's just one of the records we're setting. Don't kid yourself. Climate change is very real and we ARE very much the cause. And if you don't think bloody wars are coming because of that you're just not thinking about the problem.

I think it's sad that somebody like maybe George W. isn't eligible for say, championing a solution to the genocide in Darfur.

X

>>Warning - Long Post Follows<<

Here is the site for the Nobel Foundation: http://nobelprize.org

For those that do not know, Alfred Nobel was the inventor of dynamite, among other things:

"His research embraced many new fields offered by the fast-growing industrial society. A goodly number of Nobel's inventions were of a peaceful nature and his research in synthetics was particularly important. He developed substitutes for crude rubber and leather, as well as nitrocellulose-based varnishes. He was involved in the production of artificial silk, took out a patent for the manufacture of perforated glass nozzles, and had the world's first aluminum boat built. Nobel also designed a boiler which could withstand explosions. He helped finance S.A. Andrée's balloon expedition to the North Pole and also invested money in the manufacture of a bicycle ("the Svea bicycle"). At his death, Alfred Nobel was the holder of 355 patents."

He was also a pacifist at heart and understood Mutually Assured Destruction before it was even thought possible:

"My factories may perhaps put an end to war sooner than your congresses.
The day when two army corps will be able to destroy each other in one second,
all civilised nations will recoil from war in horror and disband their armies."
- A. Nobel, 1892

Many believe he left his fortune for the prizes as a way of remedying the damage caused by the use of dynamite for other than construction, mining, etc.

Shockingly enough, Hitler was nominated in 1939, while Chancellor of Germany. However, nomination does not mean you will win.

Also, President Carter did not win the award until 2002....long after the Camp David accords. His award was for much more: "for his decades of untiring effort to find peaceful solutions to international conflicts, to advance democracy and human rights, and to promote economic and social development"

There was also a comment regarding arrafat being awarded the Peace Prize...that is partially true...he shared it...with Shimon Perez and Yitzhak Rabin: "for their efforts to create peace in the Middle East".

Let's not condemn the prizes or compare them with tawdry popularity or sales contests such magazine contests or the Grammy's (you did know the Grammys are based on record sales?) simply because we may not agree with the awardee...that is puerile. As for the comment that Gore lobbied the committee...that would disqualify him (you can't nominate yourself)...I certainly the source for that quote was someone other than Rush Limbaugh....to me he lost all credibility after the drug abuse and his condemning soldiers who do not support Bush "phony soldiers"...this from a man who has never warn a uniform for this nation. The US military swears to defend the Constitution. The last major Army I know of to take an oath of allegiance to a person over the State was the Wehrmacht...to Adolph Hitler.

Anyway, if the above site does not have enough info, there is one last chunk, explaining how "global warming" and "peace" are related:
"The Norwegian Nobel Committee said global warming, 'may induce large-scale migration and lead to greater competition for the earth's resources. Such changes will place particularly heavy burdens on the world's most vulnerable countries. There may be increased danger of violent conflicts and wars, within and between states."
. . . Jan Egeland, a Norwegian peace mediator and former U.N. undersecretary for humanitarian affairs, also called climate change more than an environmental issue.
"It is a question of war and peace,' said Egeland, now director of the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs in Oslo. 'We're already seeing the first climate wars, in the Sahel belt of Africa.' He said nomads and herders are in conflict with farmers because the changing climate has brought drought and a shortage of fertile lands."

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater......

Greg

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

How does the award work anyway? Does anyone know who does the selecting and why the selectees are selected?

Well, a swedish enterpreneur made a lot of money by runnung successful business based on his invention of certain explosives including ballistite and dynamite. One day before he died it occurred to him that he may have done more bad than good, and decided to spend some of that money in rewarding things that have improved the life of mankind. So he gave the money, he decided how they get to be spent and who to make the selection. The Golden rule which you guys will undoubtedly agree with. So if the committee (former recipients, academics, gov. officials of Norway, etc.) decided Al Gore is the man for this honor of it, then he surely is. Had the Rockafellers established similar prize who knows may be it would've been bestowed to Abdul Aziz for keeping the wheel's of the world's largest economy greased...

Originally Posted by JMS

I have also heard that Al Gore actually lobbied the panel to get the award, which, in my mind, cheapens the award even further! I don't know how accurate that info about Gore is though.

I don't know how accurate it is either but it just shattered my world. And I heard that that the lobbying was paid 50-50 in pre-2001 USD and post 2007 CDN.

Originally Posted by JMS

I suspect he did these things because he is a chess player and knew the jig was up! It took many leaders over time to put the USSR in the state it was that forced Gorbachchevs hand! And it took many leaders to put the US in such a position that Reagan could put the right amount of pressure to help knock over that house of cards known as the USSR!

And it took about 5 years for the president of Russia to turn from 'my good friend Vladimir' to the person who happily sells nuclear technology to Iran while United States has become impotently silent about any democracy- freedom- or market- related issues whenever they involve Russia. I guess he's just another chess player but this time he knows the other side's jig is up... Well US is winning the demographics war (if you only consider US and Russia)

I would also respectfully disagree with your implication that the somewhat peaceful fall of communism was the natural outcome from Russia being run incompetently while US being the alpha and omega of anything good under the sun. I grew up on the other side and as WB who actually has experience with these people has attested it was a razor thin margin of error. Believe me the situation in these days was so close to civil war - I think closer than we even know. And I know that tanks were being called to the streets....
And if things depended so much on USA why is Cuba still communist? Probably because they don't have WMD's.... or do they? Or may be the cuban people do not deserve to experience the freedom and democracy we (and soon our Iraqi brothers) enjoy? But why am I writing all this???? I guess because I expected there would be more thought provoking arguments than the ones involving Hitler and Paris Hilton.

I am not trying to create a flame war - all I am looking for is rational arguments on the topic. The only one so far has been that Gore has personally not lived to the standards he's preaching. This is an excellent argument and I'd love to see it pursued further - to what degree should we expect people to adhere in their personal lives to the public policies they stand for? I don't care if it's Gore, or Clinton or Obama or Limbaugh, or Bush, or Reagan, or Thomson or Gingrich or whoever, I think we can and should do this in somewhat objective way.

Originally Posted by JMS

I suspect he did these things because he is a chess player and knew the jig was up!

Hmmm...not so much....I believe he genuinely wanted improvement and liberalization....and to avoid a nuclear war, as did Reagan. Reagan was condemned by conservative Republicans as being an apologist for Gorbachev (and probably because they saw that better relations with the Soviets meant lower defense spending). Gorbachev was encouraged by reforms started by Andropov, continued by Chernenko...also, there weren't that many Soviet leaders: Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, Gorbachev. His reforms started as internal changes...then he saw that he had to change external policy as well, to support the internal one.

I just wonder what campaigning for climate awareness has to do with making peace. Whether you like Arafat and Georgia's most famous peanut grower or not: they at least tried to negotiate peace in the Middle East with the then P.M. of Isreal (Perez?).

IMHO there haven't been many people trying successfully to make peace anywhere in the world last year so the Nobel Peace Prize committee must have thought: "Who else is doing a good job in our opinion to deserve a prize?"