Thread: Another sad sign of the times.......

Originally Posted by WireBeard

I was referring to the brains cells of the US populace in general. If anything, the YouTube should have a disclaimer for non-US viewers, telling them that we are all not this clueless.

And what's with the "poor woman" comments? She is not stupid or unintelligent or mentally incapacitated. She was obviously sharp enough to get onto American Idol; she is ignorant...a condition that is easily remedied by opening a book.

There is no shame in being ignorant, only in remaining so.

"Poor woman" meaning know one saw fit to slap her upside the head and say "knock it off, you have more intelligence than that!" , instead they used her for fun on a game show and an off topic thread!

Originally Posted by WireBeard

There is no shame in being ignorant, only in remaining so.

+1 good line.

Originally Posted by JMS

"Poor woman" meaning know one saw fit to slap her upside the head and say "knock it off, you have more intelligence than that!" , instead they used her for fun on a game show and an off topic thread!

I think he was just trying to prove a point here. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would post that to look good. Instead, it seems more like a "this is what America finds entertaining...yuck" thread.

Originally Posted by Quick Orange

I think he was just trying to prove a point here. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would post that to look good. Instead, it seems more like a "this is what America finds entertaining...yuck" thread.

I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by Quick Orange

I think he was just trying to prove a point here. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would post that to look good. Instead, it seems more like a "this is what America finds entertaining...yuck" thread.

Exactly...you don't think they let people on that show without giving them a test first? How entertaining would it be if everyone got all the questions correct? Just like American Idol...it is staged and has more to do with the story or creating false drama than talent...and sadly, America thinks it's real.

Does everyone really think that we, as a nation, are becoming dumber than the 50's or the 30's? I don't. This has always been the cry of the older generation when looking at the younger generations that will replace them. The Greatest Generation looked at the baby boomers with disgust given the boomer's "ME" mentality. The established generation looked at the "flappers and dappers" of the 20's with disgust, as they had no morals and lacked any direction in life.

The stupid you will have with you always, and we have always had them. It is just that now we can see them with great frequency given the immediate dissemination of information through current media outlets, and the unsurpassed access to information on the internet. As well as the "reality" tv crap which allows sick individuals to enjoy the misery and stupidity of others.

Every generation needs to stop with the "we are the best generation, and the world is going to hell in a hand basket" mentality when looking into the future.


Matt

P.S. I edited out part of my reply so as no to entice a riot.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

... as long as we insist on treating students as "clients", our education standards will continue to decline in this country.

Yep... dead nuts on!! Last Summer everyone in my wife's school district, from the janitors to the principals had to attend a seminar on "Providing good customer service". My wife's principal and the district supervisor both stated that teachers need to be using those techniques when dealing with students! What a crock! As a society we've completely lost track of what part is the dog and what part is the tail.

Originally Posted by WireBeard

This issue is not the system, but the content and application.

Perhaps I misunderstood the context here... but if you're giving the American system of education approval, then I thoroughly disagree, at least regarding the state I live in. Here the schools are literally dictated to by the parents. And while not all, the majority of the parents are mostly concerned that 1)Johnny/Suzie is getting good grades, 2)they are popular, and 3)that they are never wrong. Don't equate good grades with learning... a high percentage of the parents could care less whether Johnny/Suzie actually learn what they should so long as they get A's on their report card. It's mostly all about "my kid is better than your kid" believe it or not, with a healthy dose of making sure their kids can participate in sports and any "fun" activities.

Originally Posted by WireBeard

Sadly, with the stress on schools to "push" students through (and some universities as well), having a degree doesn't mean you can apply what you have learned. If earning a 6-7 figure salary is your only concern in life, then you can learn just what you need to get by. If you want to be able to hold an intelligent conversation about something other than your job, then there may be a problem. The form isn't important...but the content is. How you learn facts and information doesn't matter, if you can apply it. The problem is not that every US citizen is not a poet laureate or nuclear physicist - the problem is people who can't make change, who can't give directions, who can't think analytically...people who are ignorant of the origins of this nation...so much so that when the foundations are challenged, they don't even recognize it.

One of the problems is that schools have become businesses rather than an institution of learning. To grow and prosper schools have to process more students through their system each year... more students = more revenue, plain and simple. When I went to college (in the 60's) there were 7800 freshmen in the engineering dept... 1600 graduated 4-years later. The rest either transferred to another dept/school or flunked out... and lots did flunk out. Today I don't believe very many kids flunk out of anything... if they did the school would lose the revenue. So it's no wonder why the average student doesn't learn... the system is so burdened with people that shouldn't even be there that it drags down the quality for those that should. It's an insidious thing that creeps in and takes over... most schools don't see that it's happening to them because they have nothing to compare themselves to that is a standard. Colleges and local businesses used to be that standard for the public schools and industry used to provide that standard to colleges by virtue of the feedback they gave the schools. But no longer... local business and industry is too worried about complying with government rules regarding hiring and making sure no one sues their a$$ for discrimination to worry much about feedback.

The plain and simple truth is that not everyone is suited to higher learning. While everyone should have the opportunity, many kids are best suited/want to be trades people... ie, a bricklayer, an auto mechanic, an electrician, a sales clerk, etc. 150 years ago most kids stopped their schooling at about the 8th grade and then got a job as an apprentice to a trade... and a minor few went on to college. 50 years ago kids were able to take vocational classes or college prep classes as part of their 12-year schooling... when they graduated, some went on to college and the bulk still got a job in the trades. Today there is almost no vocational training incorporated in the public schools and everyone is pushed toward college. So not only do we lack qualified trades people, but we have an over abundance of college kids, many of whom never wanted to be there. Oh, and we have an overabundance of dropouts who refuse to be there, too. I say refuse because that's exactly it... they either can't or don't want to be doing academic stuff... they want to learn a trade so they can get a job... and so the quit school. Problem is, once they quit they can't get a job because they have no vocational training.

Originally Posted by mhailey

Does everyone really think that we, as a nation, are becoming dumber than the 50's or the 30's? I don't. This has always been the cry of the older generation when looking at the younger generations that will replace them. .... The stupid you will have with you always, and we have always had them.

The older generations always say that because the younger generations don't usually embrace the old ways (that's part of developing independence from our parents). Since language, morals, etc. are constantly evolving with social changes, the oldsters are left behind for the most part since they don't adopt the changes.

So I agree in many ways with your position... but, and it's a big BUT... I also feel that the younger generations overall are not as "learned" as they were in the past. I won't dispute they have as much innate ability to learn... certainly they've conquered how to navigate the internet and cell phones and MP3s better than their ancestors . But what do they actually know in the areas that comprise the foundations of math, language arts, social studies, and science?

How can we explain basic observations my wife makes... for example:

• 40% of the kids she sees entering the 6th grade level don't even know their multiplication tables
• 60% can't find their own state on a map if it is unlabeled
• 70% read at or below the 4th grade level
• the vast majority can't write a literate sentence by anyones measure and none of them can spell worth a damn.
• the overwhelming majority don't have the time/inclination to do their homework (however, almost everyone of them can tell you in detail what happened in every popular TV show the night before.).

How can we explain that while most colleges require fewer credits for a given college degree than they did 50 years ago, it now takes the average student 5-years instead of 4-years to graduate. (And, I don't buy into it's because they party harder than we did when I was in college )

How do we explain that, starting somewhere in the late 70's, kids I was interviewing for computer engineering jobs increasingly exhibited a lack of ability to work independently, to do research, to motivate themselves to solve problems and finish a job, and take responsibility for their results?

Originally Posted by gugi

Amazing - are you a mind reader? That's what I was thinking too, when I considered what is different now.

Oh, and I am very much with Alan on the unsubstantiated statements. My usual problem with this kind of articles is that even when they see fit to give an example or two these are just selected to make you form a general opinion on a subject based on just these few examples, which may as well be the few exceptions. Very shallow article in my book.

I was also wondering why would students/parents not care. I mean it seems to me in US enough people care to go to college, even better if it's a good one. That's because it improves their chances for better job with higher pay. Surely it's got to be not the form but the content that's important, although perhaps the few success stories at the tail of the curve when somebody prospers despite the lack of solid education are swaying people's opinion. I mean US is the land of opportunity and pragmatism - you don't need to know anything about Hung'ry or Turkey to make 6-7 digit salary. It really doesn't matter as much as it does in countries with more rigid class system.

This is interesting. I think it just comes down to needing to know. I have a question /point ---- I know that it is common to poke at Americans for knowing only one language --- but other than for enrichment (learning Spanish might be more important in the future), why would Americans need to know another language? I still think English is basically the international language of business,etc (correct me if I'm wrong) --and the rest of world tries to learn English -- there is no incentive.

I think Europeans are praised for knowing multiple languages, but I would think the languages learned are out of necessity and are practical for one reason or another ---interaction with important neighboring countries, maybe English because it is such an important language, etc. How many Europeans know languages from less important countries? --- I think it all has to do with position in the world and necessity.

Justin

Honestly, if you want my opinion on why children now are less educated than in the past, BLAME THE BABY BOOMERS!

This is what I edited out of my last post. Seriously, can anyone think of a worse generation than the baby boomers? Talk about self centered, egotistical, megalomaniacs. Under their tutelage, the divorce rate sored, families broke down, day care centers rearing the youths of the nation became the norm, abortions ran out of control, the deficit soared, the savings rate of this nation is in the negative (first time since the great depression). They are focused sole upon what they want, right now, the consequences to others be damned. They are the "ME" generation.

No wonder today's children are disconnected. They were reared by Kinder-care, Montessori day care, or any number of other holding pens for our generation. Then we grew and became latch key kids. Both parents worked, and demonstrated that the love of the almighty dollar took precedence over their children, and when the kids got in the way of making money, we were put in "after school" programs designed as yet another holding pen for kids.

And don't give me that BS line that it takes two incomes just to survive today. That's complete Bull SH&*!!!!! It takes two incomes to buy all of the crap that society has stated you need to be a good little consumer automaton. Do you need the three car garage, 5 bedroom, 4 bathroom, custom kitchen, granite counter tops, new car every 3 years, etc, ...? HELL NO. But the Boomers just can't live without it, and they have sacrificed their families, morals, and ethics on the alter of consumerism and the ever present pursuit of self indulgence.

And now their children are screwed up, because they received no guidance, no direction, no moral upbringing, no parental involvement, no LOVE, and the children are crucified by the intelligent elite as being stupid or unfit. That's the boomers passing the buck. The boomers created this situation, and they need to step up an own it!!!

My two cents. Take it or leave it.

Matt