Thread: Another sad sign of the times.......

Originally Posted by mhailey

Honestly, if you want my opinion on why children now are less educated than in the past, BLAME THE BABY BOOMERS!

This is what I edited out of my last post. Seriously, can anyone think of a worse generation than the baby boomers? Talk about self centered, egotistical, megalomaniacs. Under their tutelage, the divorce rate sored, families broke down, day care centers rearing the youths of the nation became the norm, abortions ran out of control, the deficit soared, the savings rate of this nation is in the negative (first time since the great depression). They are focused sole upon what they want, right now, the consequences to others be damned. They are the "ME" generation.

No wonder today's children are disconnected. They were reared by Kinder-care, Montessori day care, or any number of other holding pens for our generation. Then we grew and became latch key kids. Both parents worked, and demonstrated that the love of the almighty dollar took precedence over their children, and when the kids got in the way of making money, we were put in "after school" programs designed as yet another holding pen for kids.

And don't give me that BS line that it takes two incomes just to survive today. That's complete Bull SH&*!!!!! It takes two incomes to buy all of the crap that society has stated you need to be a good little consumer automaton. Do you need the three car garage, 5 bedroom, 4 bathroom, custom kitchen, granite counter tops, new car every 3 years, etc, ...? HELL NO. But the Boomers just can't live without it, and they have sacrificed their families, morals, and ethics on the alter of consumerism and the ever present pursuit of self indulgence.

And now their children are screwed up, because they received no guidance, no direction, no moral upbringing, no parental involvement, no LOVE, and the children are crucified by the intelligent elite as being stupid or unfit. That's the boomers passing the buck. The boomers created this situation, and they need to step up an own it!!!

My two cents. Take it or leave it.

Matt

Amen, brother!

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

This is interesting. I think it just comes down to needing to know. I have a question /point ---- I know that it is common to poke at Americans for knowing only one language --- but other than for enrichment (learning Spanish might be more important in the future), why would Americans need to know another language? I still think English is basically the international language of business,etc (correct me if I'm wrong) --and the rest of world tries to learn English -- there is no incentive.

I think Europeans are praised for knowing multiple languages, but I would think the languages learned are out of necessity and are practical for one reason or another ---interaction with important neighboring countries, maybe English because it is such an important language, etc. How many Europeans know languages from less important countries? --- I think it all has to do with position in the world and necessity.

Justin

If you are doing business, even if the language of choice is English, you will make greater headway understanding you co-workers' or clients' language/culture. Beside English, I speak Russian and German fluently, basic French and Italian, Latin (nice to know as a basis for European languages, but unless you are doing business in the Vatican, not much help). When I was working in the Netherlands, I made an effort to learn some Dutch (very hard...my German kept getting in the way) and in Asia, I made an effort to learn the basic of Mandarin and Thai. To see the shock and gratitude in the faces of the locals when you would ask a question or greet them was wonderful...and when an issue came up, more often than not they would come to me. We discussed the issue in English, but they felt I would have a great empathy for them, as I had taken the time to show them respect by learning some of their language. I also found that Thais frequently spoke Mandarin, German, and French.

Also, learning a foreign language will help improve your understanding of English, given the abysmal level of English instruction in the US. Also, education should not be distilled down to only what one needs for a job. Education also expands the mind, triggers new ideas, advances humanity.

We didn't get to the moon through the efforts of people who learned "just enough."

Originally Posted by azjoe

Perhaps I misunderstood the context here... but if you're giving the American system of education approval, then I thoroughly disagree, at least regarding the state I live in. .........

No, we agree completely. I was saying that what is taught (or the lack thereof) is a bigger problem than the school system. I worked around the deficiencies in my High School (i.e. no World History) by studying topics of interest at the library or reading at home. That is where I learned about other cultures, other literature, history, politics, rhetoric, architecture, music, art, etc. The system had some of these things which I used as stepping stones to other topics. If the system doesn't heven have the basics, the kids are lost, unless the parents step in.....

And is it just me or is there suddenly a syndrome to be used as an excuse for every students lack of effort, misbehavior?

"My child isn't a spoiled self-centered brat...he has ADD!"

"Well, Ms. Smith, may I recommend 4-5 hours of good, solid manual labor?"

(this would be followed by a call to 911 to revive the woman....and my dismissal as a teacher. Thus, I never went into education, except when I taught in the Army)

I have also noted an increase in the number of these after-school tutoring businesses....I guess when the parents are too busy to help the kids (or aren't able to), these places are the only option......

Originally Posted by WireBeard

If you are doing business, even if the language of choice is English, you will make greater headway understanding you co-workers' or clients' language/culture. Beside English, I speak Russian and German fluently, basic French and Italian, Latin (nice to know as a basis for European languages, but unless you are doing business in the Vatican, not much help). When I was working in the Netherlands, I made an effort to learn some Dutch (very hard...my German kept getting in the way) and in Asia, I made an effort to learn the basic of Mandarin and Thai. To see the shock and gratitude in the faces of the locals when you would ask a question or greet them was wonderful...and when an issue came up, more often than not they would come to me. We discussed the issue in English, but they felt I would have a great empathy for them, as I had taken the time to show them respect by learning some of their language. I also found that Thais frequently spoke Mandarin, German, and French.

Also, learning a foreign language will help improve your understanding of English, given the abysmal level of English instruction in the US. Also, education should not be distilled down to only what one needs for a job. Education also expands the mind, triggers new ideas, advances humanity.

We didn't get to the moon through the efforts of people who learned "just enough."

Yes this is all true ----and would be ideal --- but sometimes pure necessity rules the day. When I was a kid it was tough to keep kids in high school or convince them of the importance of it when they could work offshore and make very good money ---very good money. Sometimes this is all people want and need. I'm sure the concept of a large percentage of nations population learning for the purpose of enrichment is fairly new in history.

Nope ----and we also had a huge incentive.

Justin

And let's not forget that the US is among the leaders in terms of high-end education - there's people at MIT, Stanford, Berkely, Harvard etc that make Socrates look like a moron. The US is still among the go-to places for people all over the world who want to be leaders in their field.

James.

Originally Posted by mhailey

Honestly, if you want my opinion on why children now are less educated than in the past, BLAME THE BABY BOOMERS!

Certainly that's the conventional wisdom and I somewhat agree.

If we're intent on establishing guilt (which seldom helps anything move forward) wasn't there a period of moral decay following WWI? And, wasn't it WWII that got women into the work force (Rosie the riveter?)... all that was pre-BB. Also, weren't there some additional mitigating factors during the period the BBs themselves grew up? The official period of BB birth is 1946-1964, so that group was "growing up" from 1946 thru, say, 1982). During that time TV appeared, there were several additional wars (Korean & Vietnam), the hippie movement, etc. So in one sense, the BBs were the first generation that was a victim of the changes to which you speak.

But so what? Does who's at fault have any particular relevance in addressing the problem today? Not in my mind... establishing blame (usually) does almost nothing to actually resolve a problem. Only taking some kind of action to mitigate it does. So, which do we want to do... debate/establish guilt, or debate problems and possible solutions/actions that could be taken?

Today society is in a situation wherein parents want their children to get straight As, never fail, and never be criticized in any way.. nothing wrong with that in many ways. Meanwhile, schools are saying they need the ability to accurately hold the kids accountable for their actions/accomplishments, and the ability to maintain a disciplined environment so the kids can learn what they need to learn... nothing wrong there either, perhaps. But the two are somewhat in conflict at times. So, which is it going to be?

For the past 2-3 decades parents have increasingly gained control over the details of how schools and teachers themselves are allowed to function while continuing to hold the schools 100% accountable for children not learning. Well, it isn't working and honestly, I don't see how it can.

My point is that we know the old fashioned way worked... that was my example about the industrial revolution, going to the moon, etc. So why do we continually discard that as a relevant solution. I boiled it down to discipline as the root problem... no more no less. My premise is that if parents today would restore the ability of a school to discipline students in the same manner every school kid was disciplined pre-1970 I'd bet schools would be a lot more effective in educating our children. I'm not suggesting that is the best choice just because I lived through it... I'm suggesting only that it worked. I can also attest to the fact that I never knew of any kids that were physically or emotionally harmed by any of the paddling, peer pressure, or public embarrassment "punishments" invoked by the teachers at the schools I knew about. Still, many things are the same... as kids we always thought things were unfair... just as kids today feel. We always though we deserved more respect... just as kids to day feel.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

And let's not forget that the US is among the leaders in terms of high-end education - there's people at MIT, Stanford, Berkely, Harvard etc that make Socrates look like a moron. The US is still among the go-to places for people all over the world who want to be leaders in their field.

James.

Always nice to have a kind word thrown in there now and again. Thanks James -- but I agree that Americans need to change their attitude towards education.


Justin

I think these things would happen naturally. If you think what is it that USA produces and what is it that it imports you will quickly realize that not so far in the future americans who cannot compete globally will have to either rely on social security or start accepting significantly lower standard of living (relatively speaking, of course, may be not by todays standards, but by that time's standards).

I agree that the higher education in US is the best in the world. Check however the ratio americans/nonamericans in the top universities. And if people from china, india or europe get that excellent education that means that the same number of american citizens didn't get it and will have to find a different kind of jobs.

As far as languages go, my country is 7milion people and have its own language. Every single US ambassador has spoken that language when they arrive. I can't think of another country that even occasionally sends ambassadors who speak the local language. Surely if you speak English and you're interacting with virtually only Englush speaking people you are fine. I am not blaming americans for not learning spanish or chinese - it's every persons own decision what they want to learn. Perhaps in near future it will become a necessity to speak another language.

I speak reasonably 3 foreign languages, and it's been my choice based on utility and aestetics. I'd like to learn even more languages - I like to be able to understand and communicate with other people even if it brings me no monetary value. But I don't consider it a virtue - I could've spent that time learning something else instead. For example I am terrible with computer games. Never played them, last time I tried PS I couldn't even compete with a 4yr old!!! Videogames can be extremely helpful in developing certain cognitive skills, so I'm not sure I've made a very good choice, but that's what it is. I'm still able to compete very successfully with my peers who are videogame champs (I wouldn't be in US otherwise), so I don't think I've gone terribly.

But yes, I've been often wondering when traveling through small US towns - what is that people do that they make their money. There's always the automechanic, the retail, the gas station,... but it's always hard to figure out where is the money that gets spent in these places come from.

Originally Posted by azjoe

How can we explain basic observations my wife makes... for example:

• 40% of the kids she sees entering the 6th grade level don't even know their multiplication tables
• 60% can't find their own state on a map if it is unlabeled
• 70% read at or below the 4th grade level
• the vast majority can't write a literate sentence by anyones measure and none of them can spell worth a damn.
• the overwhelming majority don't have the time/inclination to do their homework (however, almost everyone of them can tell you in detail what happened in every popular TV show the night before.).

How can we explain that while most colleges require fewer credits for a given college degree than they did 50 years ago, it now takes the average student 5-years instead of 4-years to graduate. (And, I don't buy into it's because they party harder than we did when I was in college )

How do we explain that, starting somewhere in the late 70's, kids I was interviewing for computer engineering jobs increasingly exhibited a lack of ability to work independently, to do research, to motivate themselves to solve problems and finish a job, and take responsibility for their results?

The red statements is to what I was responding. Blame aside, that is my explanation and to the status of the current generation which is coming into the workplace, and a product of the rearing (or lack there of) by the boomers.

As to your new post, how do we change it into the future and try and correct this, I feel that society is already trying to do this. In my generation, more and more women (my wife included) are staying home and rearing their children. We are purchasing less and less house, and making due with less materialistic things than the boomers, thus allowing us to be parents to our children rather than slaves to consumerism. I work in a very stressful position, and yet I REFUSE TO WORK WEEKENDS (despite the negative inferences that has cast upon me in my workplace) because that is my time with my children. I REFUSE TO WORK PAST 5:30p.m. because we sit down at the dinner table together, as a family, every night, bow our heads and give thanks to the almighty for the blessings in our family. More and more families in my generation are being parents to the children of tomorrow, and teaching them right from wrong at early ages. We are involved with our children, teaching them, guiding them, and instructing them.

IMHO this is the solution, and there is no other. It is going to take a paradigm shift from society to correct this situation. Society is going to have to view our children as the future, and invest our time, money and energy into the proper rearing of our children. This is a sharp shift from what is currently the situation in that children are treated as a financial obligation and burden which are to be tolerated (so long as there is a day care), or worse, leverage in a divorce battle to obtain a greater financial settlement.

Parents are the key to the future, and their actions (or inactions) with their children, and what we see today is the result of the actions (or inactions) of the boomers. I hope and pray that me and my friends are representative of how future children are being reared.

Matt

Edit: Also, as to the statement that the boomers were "victims" of the changes to which I spoke, I respond with a resounding NO! You show me a family from 1946 through 1964 where it was not the traditional family. By in large the father worked, the mother reared the children. It was the boomers, and their "social consciousness" that wrought these changes. The boomers were the hippies, and they were the "turn on, tune in, and drop out" generation. They then moved into the work place beginning in the 1960's, and started getting married. correct me if I am wrong, but that almost perfectly correlates to the ever increasing boom in the divorce rate. Both parents worked, because they would be damned to be dependent upon someone else, and the children suffered. They created the "sexual revolution" of the 60's and 70's and then created the insatiable consumerism of the 80's. As a generation, I have nothing but disdain for the boomers. They have spent more than they have created, and are driving this nation to bankruptcy. They are a generation of Paris Hiltons. Given everything by their parents (The Greatest Generation), and squandered it like the prodigal son. However, my generation is going to pay the piper for their excess.