Thread: Realpolitik

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Really Kees if we are going to vote a state out of the untion I would prefer that it be California. .

Nah, just northern California, and more specifically, San Francisco and Berkeley plus a large chunk of the surrounding area!

Yeah, I heard about Kosovo also.

Sorry JMS, the point would be to eliminate the total california effect on national politics. Anything that leaves your Senators and represenatives in DC is unacceptable.

Well, indeed it is true that the Serbians are minority in Kosovo, so there is very little they can do. So are the jews in Jerusalim, but nobody will let the arabs have the old city. Look at any separatist conflict on the earth and it's the same story.
The only difference is perhaps the genocide in the late 90s. But there is plenty of genocide on much larger scale happening in other places that doesn't go to high priority.

Originally Posted by gugi

Several weeks ago a new 'country', Kosovo, proclaimed independence. I use quotations because it is still not a real country, recognized by the UN or even EU, just by few countries (although most powers are on the list).

At the risk of sounding like a jackass, the UN and EU can shove off. Both do not make the rules- they are basically clubs, and just because you aren't in the club doesn't mean you don't exist. I'm fairly certain that the UN and EU don't recognize the Indian tribe that broke off from the US in Wyoming as their own country, but that doesn't change the fact that they more or less are their own country.

If Kosovo wants to be free, then let them go. Honestly they deserve it...

Originally Posted by Kees

And now Belgium's existence as a state is being challenged from the inside...

Hardly a surprise given it's tortuous history - a country made out of disparate bits of territory with different languages and cultures by the British, in order to upset the French (perfectly adequate justification).

Originally Posted by Quick Orange

At the risk of sounding like a jackass, the UN and EU can shove off. Both do not make the rules- they are basically clubs, and just because you aren't in the club doesn't mean you don't exist.

The EU is not much different from the US in organization.
A bunch of states, nominally bound in a club, each trying to maximize their own profit, and with vastly different cultures. California and Texas are as far apart in spirit as Belgium and Turkey.
We also have the difference between EU level laws and country laws, like you have federal and state laws.

Originally Posted by trewornan

Hardly a surprise given it's tortuous history - a country made out of disparate bits of territory with different languages and cultures by the British, in order to upset the French (perfectly adequate justification).

The British supported us when Belgium declared independence, as did the French. Belgium was not 'made' by anyone. It was tolerated at first, and then supported when the Netherlands wanted to take it back by force.

But yes, The history of Belgium is not pretty. It is called 'the battle ground of Europe' for a good reason.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Belgium was not 'made' by anyone.

I was referring to the Treaty of London which got it's name for a reason. I grossly simplified it (and the bit about the French was tongue in cheek) but we're both kind of right, nothing about the history of Belgium is simple.

Well, I chose as a title Realpolitik, Kosovo is just an example, and while we can discuss anything related we should watch out not to start insulting other members.

Originally Posted by Quick Orange

At the risk of sounding like a jackass, the UN and EU can shove off. Both do not make the rules- they are basically clubs, and just because you aren't in the club doesn't mean you don't exist.

Yes EU is just a club, but a powerful one right next to Kosovo and UN is sort of a club, but much more than it. It really is the international body that sets the standards for international relations. Now I know that a lot of Americans think that they US is biggest dog on the block and therefore has the right to do whatever it wants, but that's really not how it works. It US can't get along with everybody else all its military power is good for nothing more but ensuring the obliteration of the planet.

So yes, what makes a state is recognition by the international community, in particular UN.

If Kosovo wants to be free, then let them go. Honestly they deserve it...

I am not sure what makes you say that they deserve it? They do not have functioning economy or state institutions - check what portion of their GDP is foreign aid. And why should they be independent when that's not what they want - they feel they are ethnic Albanians and want to be part of Albania. The independence is what everybody else is willing to grant them, but that's not at all how they identify themselves.

My next question is - how about the Basques, the Chechnians, the Kurds, the Palestinians, the North Osethians... don't they deserve to be independent too, some of them have fought much longer for their independence than the people in Kosovo. Why don't they deserve it equally well?

If the Brits had won in 1776, I'm sure US wouldn't be so deserving to be independent either - if you measure it by this standard as it seems everybody else is being measured, Kosovo shouldn't be independent either.

Originally Posted by trewornan

I was referring to the Treaty of London which got it's name for a reason. I grossly simplified it (and the bit about the French was tongue in cheek) but we're both kind of right, nothing about the history of Belgium is simple.

True. Some situations are ver complex.

For example, when our crown prince married, every line in the ceremony was repeated thrice. Once in each language, that way noone would feel offended.
But of course, they also had to change the language that was read first with each part of the ceremony, so that noone would feel offended that the other language was always read first.

And this is just a harmless situation.