Thread: Realpolitik

Since US media doesn't seem too concerned with reporting on the rest of the world I thought I'd post on something that recently happened in my country's neighborhood.

Several weeks ago a new 'country', Kosovo, proclaimed independence. I use quotations because it is still not a real country, recognized by the UN or even EU, just by few countries (although most powers are on the list).
Nevertheless it is an interesting story. A quick look at the list of states who recognize it and the ones who don't, shows practically perfect correlation with the list of countries which have to deal with separatist conflicts.

In any case, we have several members from that part of the world and some who serve there. I am not very familiar with the situation, but the closest analogue that I could think of was - imagine the amish people were muslim and after having scores of children over several generations they completely dominate the region around Gettysburg. Then one day they proclaim independence. I am sure no american will feel too good about this, so that's probably how the serbian people are feeling right now.

Anyways, it is not an easy situation, but from my point of view those who decide what will happen, could care less about either side of the conflict. It's just the usual power games between the big players. I've been accused of being overly cynical, and indeed I am, but how can you not be when you see that despite all the pompous and patriotic words about principles, integrity, and national pride, when it comes to live by them the interests always trump the principles.

I support the independence of Kosovo.

If a region like Kosovo decides with a majority vote that it should be independent, there is little you can do about it if they have thought things through in advance. I really think Russia is being stupid. The only reason they involve themselves is that they lose their old-school influence in the general area.
If anything, the people wanting to turn Kosovo back into serbia are dreaming.
The only thing it will achieve is all out civil war, like what happened over 15 years ago when Eastern Europe exploded.

The serbian extremists claiming that 'Kosovo is ours, always has been, always will be' are lunatics. First of all, if you don't live there, you have no claim of ownership. By the same token I would support any commonwealth where the people decided they don't want to be British, American or Dutch territory.

My country has been invaded and occupied by most other western european countries for the last 500 years or so. It was only in 1830 that we managed to declare ourselves independent, and got enough support from other countries to remain that way.

Kosovo does not belong to Serbia by rights any more than e.g. Belgium belonged to the Netherlands.

Originally Posted by Bruno

My country has been invaded and occupied by most other western european countries for the last 500 years or so. It was only in 1830 that we managed to declare ourselves independent, and got enough support from other countries to remain that way.
.

And now Belgium's existence as a state is being challenged from the inside...

Originally Posted by Kees

And now Belgium's existence as a state is being challenged from the inside...

Hardly a surprise given it's tortuous history - a country made out of disparate bits of territory with different languages and cultures by the British, in order to upset the French (perfectly adequate justification).

Originally Posted by trewornan

Hardly a surprise given it's tortuous history - a country made out of disparate bits of territory with different languages and cultures by the British, in order to upset the French (perfectly adequate justification).

The British supported us when Belgium declared independence, as did the French. Belgium was not 'made' by anyone. It was tolerated at first, and then supported when the Netherlands wanted to take it back by force.

But yes, The history of Belgium is not pretty. It is called 'the battle ground of Europe' for a good reason.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Belgium was not 'made' by anyone.

I was referring to the Treaty of London which got it's name for a reason. I grossly simplified it (and the bit about the French was tongue in cheek) but we're both kind of right, nothing about the history of Belgium is simple.

But how long will the international communitiy be prepared to pay vast amounts of money to keep small patches of the earth safe from their neighbours? How many independent but bankrupt countries do we want?

Originally Posted by gugi

Since US media doesn't seem too concerned with reporting on the rest of the world I thought I'd post on something that recently happened in my country's neighborhood.

Several weeks ago a new 'country', Kosovo, proclaimed independence. I use quotations because it is still not a real country, recognized by the UN or even EU, just by few countries (although most powers are on the list).
Nevertheless it is an interesting story. A quick look at the list of states who recognize it and the ones who don't, shows practically perfect correlation with the list of countries which have to deal with separatist conflicts.

In any case, we have several members from that part of the world and some who serve there. I am not very familiar with the situation, but the closest analogue that I could think of was - imagine the amish people were muslim and after having scores of children over several generations they completely dominate the region around Gettysburg. Then one day they proclaim independence. I am sure no american will feel too good about this, so that's probably how the serbian people are feeling right now.

Anyways, it is not an easy situation, but from my point of view those who decide what will happen, could care less about either side of the conflict. It's just the usual power games between the big players. I've been accused of being overly cynical, and indeed I am, but how can you not be when you see that despite all the pompous and patriotic words about principles, integrity, and national pride, when it comes to live by them the interests always trump the principles.

Originally Posted by gugi

In any case, we have several members from that part of the world and some who serve there. I am not very familiar with the situation, but the closest analogue that I could think of was - imagine the amish people were muslim and after having scores of children over several generations they completely dominate the region around Gettysburg. Then one day they proclaim independence. I am sure no american will feel too good about this, so that's probably how the serbian people are feeling right now.

A poor analogue to me. Sorry.

Imagine the people of Rhode Island had a separate language and culture from the rest of New England. Now imagine the Rhode Islanders were subject to attempts at systematic genocide by the Massachussetters. Now, imagine the US collapses as a union and all the states break up into separate countries, but MA claims RI as a part of it and, thanks to a military presence that was carrying out the genocide they are able to force compliance. Now, the world at large decries the attempts at genocide and a couple of large countries engage in military action to quell it and bring the government leaders of Massachussetts to an international tribunal, however RI is still left as part of MA to avoid provoking a major international war.

Flash forward ten years, RI has recovered from the genocide and carpet bombing and wishes to separate.

Now that's a closer hypothetical to what happened in Kosova.

The way TCMB describes it is pretty accurate.

The serbian death squads even invented a special knife which was used during the genocides.
That way they could kill by knifing the back of the head, which saved a large amount of bullets, and was much more reliable. Some people survived the initial shootings, which was obviously embarrasing.

I forgot the name of the knife (or rather, I have not the remotest idea how it is written) but we were taught about it in history class, which focused on rather modern events that year.
Btw it is not as if the Serbians were alone in the massacres. There was wholesale slaughter on both ends, but Kosovo was only part of Serbia through force.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I support the independence of Kosovo.

Me too! I think they deserve a chance at freedom.

Originally Posted by Kees

But how long will the international communitiy be prepared to pay vast amounts of money to keep small patches of the earth safe from their neighbours? How many independent but bankrupt countries do we want?

This, unfortunately, is the big question. I think that there are a lot of tiny countries out there that will never have a chance of supporting themselves in any way. Sooner or later they will become a part of a larger governmental entity for their own sake and that of the rest of the world. I think the trick here will be to work to insure that all these little places have the chance to join a western democracy where they will continue to have the freedom to be their own people rather than let them fall to Communism which squashes all spirit or Muslim tyranny the eliminates all freedom of choice.

That sounds a little arrogant but.... The point is we let them choose their own fate and try to insure they have that choice. I also think we should respect it even if their choice will inevitably lead to their death, individually and as a culture. If thats their choice we should just let it happen no more pointless rescues once the will of the people is clear.