Thread: Homeland Security, is it going too far?

I used to be a cop, and I can say from experience that how you are treated depends alot on which cop you get. There are always some power hungry people who go crazy when they get a badge. There are also some very easy to get along with officers who will go above and beyond to help you out. Thus, how you are treated is to some extent your luck of the draw (the proverbial cop lottery).

Originally Posted by fatherof4

I used to be a cop, and I can say from experience that how you are treated depends alot on which cop you get. There are always some power hungry people who go crazy when they get a badge. There are also some very easy to get along with officers who will go above and beyond to help you out. Thus, how you are treated is to some extent your luck of the draw (the proverbial cop lottery).

Many times it's how you treat the cop also.

Originally Posted by JMS

What I have highlighted in red is tantamount to doing what you say that you are refraining from doing!
As for the rest, all my dealings with law enforcement have been pleasant with the exception of one where I was extremely surly to the police officer, so he called for back up! neither police officer laid a hand on me, but made it clear in no uncertain terms that if I became any more hostile I would not like the results! Later that night when I got home I realized that I was the idiot and extremely fortunate not to be in custody!

1) No, there is a huge difference between using foul language and expressing how you feel. I have been treated very unfairly in the past. As a result of the unnecessary incivility that was extended to me on every occasion, I have expressed that many of the law enforcement officers in my state of residence do not deserve the prestigious title that they have been given. But did not resort to the low brow methods that they choose to pursue.

2) That is great for you! But I have never been anything short of polite and hospitable to any figure of authority, ever. It's just not in my character to be rude.

I do understand that there are good police officers out there, but I have not met them. Even last year when I was robbed, the officer who came to take the report spoke to me as if I was an idiot who deserved what had happened and like it was a waste of his time to have to deal with me.

I do not regret anything I've written.

So lets see she came to the U.S without a visa and she falsely misrepresented herself by completing paperwork on the plane to be excused a visa when it's clear that type of visa waiver is for strictly visitors not people coming for business reasons. then she feels she should be treated differently than anyone else coming into the country.

So she has the advantage of writing a bunch of exaggerated garbage about her experience. If she was all that indignant she should have requested a hearing with the Immigration judge to determine her admissability to the U.S.

What you have to understand is that until an Immigration/Customs Officer admits her to this country legally she ain't here and has limited rights for that reason. Its just the way the law is written. She just isn't happy about it. I spent almost 30 years working as an Immigration Special Agent and spent many a long night working at the airport in Los Angles on overtime working as an Immigration Inspector. As they say, we just enforce the law.

Originally Posted by JMS

Many times it's how you treat the cop also.

I've never had problems with law enforcement in my area, but much of it comes from respect, I show them the proper respect, as I'm informing them I'm armed, and allowing them to disarm me peacably, they show respect to me for being honest with them, and respecting their safety.
The reality of the matter is they don't know what they are walking into, every situation can be dangerous, and they condition themselves to be "in charge"
They have always shown me respect because I make them feel safe. After the obligatory "is this loaded!?", and "is this registered" questions... they know I mean them no harm, and they have always treated me fairly.

Of course the knowledge that I am armed, and they weren't prepared, might be a huge eye opener for them. ( I don't look like the type of person you would expect to be packing, and I only carry for home defense.)

The thing that I was so shocked about wasn't the fact that she was kicked out again. I can understand that. It's more the behaviour of the people who had to process her that shocked me.

Yelling, not feeding, bodily searches (if she's not going to be let into the country and she clearly IS a reporter...why those type of things.) Searching luggage without her being able to supervise etc.

I understand that you don't want to let people in that shouldn't be there. What I don't get is that you have to treat people who made a misstake (even if the misstake was being cocky about expecting to get into the country and not checking up on the paperwork) like hardened criminals.

And I'm sure it's not all officers.....but this kind of thing still shocks me.

One statistic she mentions at the very end is that 12-13 people have failed to provide journalistic visas when arriving and almost all of them got into trouble at LAX.

That is a difficult stat to analyze but I'd say most of the problem then could be the staff at LAX.

I completetly agree with most of your point Alex, except the part about being able to "supervise" the search of your luggage. I think that is a good example of why most people will never see eye to eye with me on this subject. Sort of a good example of the kind of entitlement people seem to feel they have.

And actually, when it comes to suspected espionage or hardened criminals, we treat them MUCH worse. This still isn't the best time to be running around America thinking your entitled to do whatever you want.

Don't get me wrong. I do believe luggage should be searched....but I also believe that if it's your stuff someone else is handling....you should have a right to at least be able to see what happends.

All it takes is 1 corrupt functionary who'll stash something illegal in your luggage to incriminate you.

The law should be on both sides...(the country AND those being searched) not just on the side of the searchers....not the searchees.


Besides.....I understand that you don't want to let anyone in....but if they're there for some interviews....and you don't have any reason to assume they're out to do something wrong or harm national security....then why the harsh treatment?

A simple..."please wait here, sorry about the inconvenience/harsh accomodations" wouldn't be out of place now would it?

"We're going to search your luggage now. Sorry for the inconvenience but we have to be certain about these things" wouldn't be all that difficult now would it?

For a country where almost every large supermarket chain has a doorgreeter these kind of things shouldn't be too hard to grasp in governmental fields either.

I mean....whatever happened to "Welcome to America, land of opportunity"? I know I know. You've got to keep terrorists out. And you do have to check people. But as long as you have no reason to believe that someone really IS out to get you, why should people not be treated the way custom people would like to be treaded themselves?

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

it's clear that type of visa waiver is for strictly visitors not people coming for business reasons.

Not quite true ... it is perfectly acceptable for some kinds of business ... I've been to the US a couple of times on business and used the visa waiver and have never had a problem.

From the us travel website :

The purpose of their stay in the United States is 90 days or less for tourism or business (if in doubt, travelers should check with the nearest Embassy or Consulate to verify that what they plan to do is considered tourism or business. Transit through the United States is generally permitted. Note that foreign media representatives planning to engage in that vocation in the United States are not eligible, as the purpose of their stay does not qualify as “business”. These professionals must obtain a nonimmigrant media (I) visa. See media visa for more information. Also see Visitor Visas – Business and Pleasure;

Yes it does clearly state that media reps are excluded as their vocation doesn't class as business, she got it wrong and made a mistake, she didn't do it deliberately else she would have told the official that she was just a tourist - That would have been a misrepresentation. She even said about the visa waiver excluding journalists in her article.

You obviously have a closer view having worked in immigration, but surely it is still possible to treat people humanely and with respect while following the law. The problem is not that she was refused entry it was her treatment while she was processed, though reading the article I think her behavior (As Alan has mentioned regarding entitlement) didn't exactly do her any favors.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

All it takes is 1 corrupt functionary who'll stash something illegal in your luggage to incriminate you.

Or the other way round and steal items from your luggage.

Barney

It has been my experience with police and security forces, that most are generally good people, and according to them are just trying to do their jobs. I don’t recognize their authority over me, but I treat them with respect just like I would any other person. Like any other large grouping of people though, there are some that have abused the power given to them, but these are typically individuals and not the grouping as a whole. These individuals are not worthy of my respect no matter what their position of authority is.

I’m sure there are some really good kind hearted people in the Homeland Security (still sounds very Gestapo to me) umbrella, but as an organization, I feel that they are no longer serving the people and have turned to policing and controlling the people. Once authorities lose respect and responsibility for the people it is serving, then abuse and loss of freedom soon follows. For me, this is what happened with Homeland Security. Police and security forces have been given too much control and authority without accountability.

Of course I am different in my opinion than most. I don’t believe that freedom is given by government. I personally feel that people, like animals and other creatures of this earth, are naturally free and it is the giving of government and security forces power over us (authority) that we lose our true freedom.