Thread: So these are the types of people the supreme court want to turn loose on US courts?

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Etc., etc...

During the Vietnam war, the Pentagon wanted body count and the result was My Lai. These people weren't terrorists, they just happened to be fighting against US soldiers when their country was invaded. Why were we there in the first place? For the oil maybe but certainly not because the Afghanis or Iraqis had anything to do with 9/11, which they didn't. I respect the fact that you have strong feelings about the issue but your sense of morality is rather blunted. It's all very nice to defend everyone in a uniform but I almost expect you to burst into a chorus of "Oh, the fireman is your friend" when a grown-up would understand that some people wearing a uniform do bad things. In the present case, we have a government of war criminals who would all be hanged if the same standards used in the Nuremburg trials were applied.

You might list their war crimes and give us solid evidence of your assertions, if you will?

Originally Posted by JMS

You might list their war crimes and give us solid evidence of your assertions, if you will?

Google "US war crimes" and read a little bit. But for starters, invading another country without provocation is a war crime. There is no one who claims that the Afghanis or Iraquis had anything to do with 9/11. Targeting civilians, ala "Shock & Awe" is a war crime. Torturing prisoners is a war crime with pretty good evidence that the abuses at Abu Graihb were ordered from the top. But it doesn't stop there.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Etc., etc...

During the Vietnam war, the Pentagon wanted body count and the result was My Lai. These people weren't terrorists, they just happened to be fighting against US soldiers when their country was invaded. Why were we there in the first place? For the oil maybe but certainly not because the Afghanis or Iraqis had anything to do with 9/11, which they didn't. I respect the fact that you have strong feelings about the issue but your sense of morality is rather blunted. It's all very nice to defend everyone in a uniform but I almost expect you to burst into a chorus of "Oh, the fireman is your friend" when a grown-up would understand that some people wearing a uniform do bad things. In the present case, we have a government of war criminals who would all be hanged if the same standards used in the Nuremburg trials were applied.

You accuse me of having a blunted sense of morality, but you level accusations far worse than anything I've suggested (I've mostly suggested that perhaps not everyone is as evil as you seem to claim) with absolutely zero proof. Unpopular decisions do not magically become "war crimes". Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Also just because "you" say someone was tortured does not make something that happens to that individual "torture". Don't worry, people like you make it a lot easier to squeeze the trigger instead of capturing. A finger is enough to get DNA proof that someone was knocked out of the gene pool, after all...that way you won't have it on your conscience worrying if someone had to listen to ENYA for hours at a time and whether that is "torture" or not. Ridiculous.

FWIW the poor innocent people we were fighting during the invasion are called "Iraqi Army". Those have since been released for the most part at the end of hostilities with their former nation, and many of them are in the new Iraqi army fighting alongside us today. Your comparisons to one particular tragedy during the Vietnam war are not only misguided but show no logic whatsoever. Even watching the news, as unfriendly to the troops as it is, would tell the simplest child the war is not about "body count". Otherwise why risk the blood of our own 20 year old kids in Fallujah, when it would have been simpler to carpet bomb it flat. Why spend hundreds of thousands on "smart" munitions to get only a single house, when in WWII we would have firebombed the entire city killing every man, woman and child, if possible. Yet you say we are somehow more horrible today. You obviously have no clue.

Point is, you decry people for things you imagine them to have done, but have no real proof any of it happened, and you do so with an obvious bias. If you believe that strongly for the other side, there are airplanes to Jordan and from there to Syria and Iran, where, if the Iraqis don't catch you, you can be free to sneak across and join those whose innocence you so believe in. Better that than spouting enemy propaganda from your armchair as gospel, when in fact you've checked none of your facts, good or bad.

There is a difference in claiming everyone in uniform is innocent of everything (something not even I have claimed) and painting from your armchair with the wide brush of guilt you are using to do the exact opposite, and expecting no one to disagree with you or find you alarmingly biased.
You ask that we take the mantra of "innocent until proven guilty" to those captured ACTUALLY IN THE ACT OF TRYING TO KILL AMERICANS, (never mind a POW doesn't actually have to be guilty of ANYTHING other than taking up arms against the captor) or to set free known enemies before the end of conflict, but suggest hanging for officials you have nothing other than rumor and hearsay against . There are officials I disagree with, but suggesting what you do borders on the unconscionable with only your own regurgitated venom as "evidence" against them.

So...you are indeed painting with this brush. I level that if you are going to commit slander you should at least be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that which you claim. It is obvious you have zero loyalty to this country, and are willing to believe any propaganda against her that you can find. While others here have shown they are capable of debate and perhaps entertaining the idea that not all the negative propaganda is true, you my friend, are a true believer, and to be honest, as long as you choose to believe only negative about the U.S. and only positive about the Terrorists, there is no real point in discussing it with you. You are free to go fight as an "insurgent" just like all the other blond haired, blue-eyed "mujahideen" we've captured with smoking RPG's or severed heads over there. As far as I'm concerned, you are not an American, if you ever were. To be honest, your statements are not in keeping with an honorable person from ANY country, and there are people I respect on here from MANY countries. You, however, are so filled with hate that it is obvious that when doubt is placed on one of your accusations you add another, just as unprovable accusation, on top of it.

When the flag goes by (and if you are British, Canadian, etc. or one of our allies-your own flag) you should not stand. You should hang your head in shame for the accusations you've made without proof and the willingness to which you believe ill. You do not have the right, IMHO, to stand in its presence. Questioning what happens is a whole lot different than making unfounded accusations, which is what you are doing. Obviously you believe that the American flag (I'm including other nations which fight alongside us, too-the UK, Canada, Australia, Poland, and others) stands for war criminals and will entertain nothing else (after all...AMERICANS saying they didn't do something...that's just "hearsay"...it's only TRUE if a terrorist says it...right?)

If American government and troops are just a bunch of murderers in your opinion, (so far you've compared me and my countrymen, as well as our elected leaders-elected by the people who bothered to VOTE, to: Hitler, the Gestapo (your cute little well known "they came for the...") mass murderers ala My Lai, and war criminals) then why don't you leave. A man questioning what his government and country does is one thing. It is completely another to make blanket accusations without backing them up at all.
If you are just trying to yank my chain, it worked. It is unfathomable to me some of the things you are claiming.

John P.

Originally Posted by JohnP

It is unfathomable to me some of the things you are claiming.

The truth hurts ... it hurts a lot. I understand that you want to believe that the Americans are the good guys and everything we do is right, but it just isn't so. I'm sorry, really I am.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

The truth hurts ... it hurts a lot. I understand that you want to believe that the Americans are the good guys and everything we do is right, but it just isn't so. I'm sorry, really I am.

You really believe that, huh? I wish you well Sir, and am truly sorry that you believe this! I can no longer entertain this thread.

Thank you to all who posted!

Originally Posted by Chimensch

The truth hurts ... it hurts a lot. I understand that you want to believe that the Americans are the good guys and everything we do is right, but it just isn't so. I'm sorry, really I am.

I guess I have one final word. Chimensch, I know that you grew up in America, and suspect that you are still a citizen, so I must say to you that it is one thing to think that your country has made mistakes, or is going in the wrong direction or maybe even believe that a particular administration is hurting America and breaking laws, but to see your own country as the bad guy, as evil means that you have lost all hope, and this is truly depressing Sir!

I hope you find a country and a place in this world!


Mark

Originally Posted by JMS

I guess I have one final word. Chimensch, I know that you grew up in America, and suspect that you are still a citizen, so I must say to you that it is one thing to think that your country has made mistakes, or is going in the wrong direction or maybe even believe that a particular administration is hurting America and breaking laws, but to see your own country as the bad guy, as evil means that you have lost all hope, and this is truly depressing Sir!

I hope you find a country and a place in this world!


Mark

I was going to let you have the last word, but then you didn't stop talking! I don't accept the equation you made, "to see your own country as the bad guy" = "you have lost all hope". I was a Consicientious Objector during the Viet Nam war and worked two years in a mental hospital as my alternative service. I'm not criticizing the soldiers who went to fight there but, 40 years later, did they do more good for their country than I did? We lost the war in Viet Nam and we should never have been there in the first place and the same is probably true for all wars, even the so-called "good one".

Ok, Chimensch. I agree with you. Honestly, but JMS seems to want this thread closed, as the originator of this thread and by site rules he is the moderator of this thread.

I'm asking that all viewers from now on act as though this is a thread closed by JMS, if you want to discuss further you can start a new thread in the conversation.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by JohnP

Scott, apologies! .

Absolutely none necessary. There is, for some reason, a tremendous tug toward inserting the scenarios behind these imprisonments that support our views, but none of us really know what any of the scenarios are, because the people behind this have been doing their best to prevent meaningful oversight behind a cloak of national security. This was the first real external review of one of these cases, as far as I know, and its starting to seem (as many suspected-- but their I go inserting my scenario of choice!) that some, maybe many, of these cases won't stand up to scrutiny.

Originally Posted by JMS

You really believe that, huh? I wish you well Sir, and am truly sorry that you believe this! I can no longer entertain this thread.

Thank you to all who posted!

This thread has been closed at the originator's request.