Thread: The Patriot Act, part 2

This has given birth to some interesting thoughts in my head. While Jockeys comparison is harsh (by his own admission), it raises some good questions which I hope won't go ignored:

What if they killed someone in the 9/11 attacks who could've cured cancer? (not a good question, just the first one that lept to mind when I read)

I too feel that this bill has continued the erosion of freedom in this country; however, I know it is impossible to trade the 3 C's for terrorism. If 9/11 actually happened every year, it would be on top of the same deaths by cancer, car wrecks, and cholesterol. Now, since that is the case: what to do about it? The goal of terrorism is also to control us. It sucks that our own government is using the same fear, but again what is the solution?

Originally Posted by jockeys

ok, let's call a spade a spade, and not kid ourselves for a second that this is intended to protect us. it's intended to control us.

7 years ago this fall, terrorists killed somewhat less than 5,000 people. tragic, really. but in the end, so what? 5,000 people is negligible. a hundred times that many are killed every year by the 3 C's: cancer, car wrecks, and cholesterol. why don't we declare war on those things? obviously we aren't trying to protect peoples' lives... even if 9/11 happened EVERY YEAR it would still be a negligible amount of people that died. harsh but true.

I'd rather take my chances, each year, of being one of the 5,000 out of almost 300,000,000 Americans that could possibly be killed, than to have my life ruined by a bunch of spineless beauracrats who think they know what's best for meCould you dig deeper into this? How exactly does the bill ruin your life? This isn't inflammatory, I want to know more of your opinion.). hell, why not, my odds are still better of living through such a chance than braving Dallas rush hour every morning, yet no one wants to legislate bad driving away, even though it is ultimately responsible for taking 50 lives for every 1 taken by terrorism in this country.

go read 1984 and weep for what our country has become(I weep nightly, the only difference now is that some else is listening when I do...). I know I have.


/rant

sic said:Could you dig deeper into this? How exactly does the bill ruin your life? This isn't inflammatory, I want to know more of your opinion.


well, alright, I now have a government, over me, that can (and apparently already has) illegally and wantonly spied on its citizenry (myself included). I mean, am I the only one who find the idea of Big Brother spying on everything I do disturbing? how long before they start using this information to control political dissidents? there was another society that did this in the past, but if I mentioned it, I'd Godwin the thread, so I won't

When I went to VietNam as a just turned 19 year old Marine, I believed what my government told me.

Two years later I returned home and haven't trusted/believed my government since then.

Politicians, all of them, left and right and center, seem to be into it all for themselves and power. Frankly, I don't think one can be a successful politician and be honest at all times too. And that folks, is our government, the politicians, not the people.

WaterBoo

Originally Posted by sicboater

What if they killed someone in the 9/11 attacks who could've cured cancer?

What if they killed some1 in the 9/11 attack that was planning an even bigger terrorist attack for the next day?

You cant live your live your life on what ifs. Thats a wasted life. Live on what you have and what will be, not on what might have been.

Quite right! My intention is that the statement only has a context within jockeys's post.

Originally Posted by sidneykidney

What if they killed some1 in the 9/11 attack that was planning an even bigger terrorist attack for the next day?

You cant live your live your life on what ifs. Thats a wasted life. Live on what you have and what will be, not on what might have been.

What if the terrorists had used more than just planes? what if it was a dirty bomb, a chemical or biological attack, or a nuclear attack? Now we are not talking about 5000 people, now we are talking about all of New York, Orange County, Denver, Dallas-Forth Worth, Atlanta? We were lucky it was only planes.

you speak as though the terrorists are only content on killing 5000 per year, which is a very bad assumption. If they could, they would wipe the USA off the map. There is nothing wrong or illegal about tapping an international phone call.

OH, and by the way, the 4th amendment does not protect you from all searches and seizures. It only protects you from those that are "unreasonable." We, the citizens, in the founding documents of our country, granted to the government the power to conduct reasonable searches and reasonable seizures. I really want to hear from someone that will honestly state (and believes) that tapping an international phone call to a country that knowingly harbors terrorists, and promotes terrorist activities, is unreasonable. Especially given that it has already been held that, with no probable cause, and without any articulable suspicion, every orifice of a person entering the country can be search.

Matt

Who defines "unreasonable"?

If you feel that this type of surveillance is Unreasonable, then provide a definition of reasonable which supports your position.

And in the end, the Courts define reasonable.

It has generally been held that you are protected under the 4th amendment when there is a "reasonable expectation of privacy."

Matt

When it comes to my orifices I have a "reasonable expectation of privacy"!

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

When it comes to my orifices I have a "reasonable expectation of privacy"!

And who wouldn't. but this just supports the legality of the wiretapping. If you should have a reasonable expectation of privacy as it pertains to your orifices, yet they are subject to search (hopefully not seizure) when entering the country, why does an international phone call in which only your voice is being searched carry some greater degree of protection?

Matt