Thread: The war in Georgia

Imagine...

... Quebec shells Canada with French weapons. Canada invades Quebec. France, already present in Quebec, invades Canada to protect Quebecers from Canadians. Or because Canadians killed French soldiers. Or because France doesn't like the Queen. Or whatever. France and Canada sign a ceasefire agreement and France continues firing. What do you expect with a bunch of clowns from the court of King Louis XVI? The rest of the world has some strong words backed up by a whole lot of nothing. The French do supply the world with cheese and have nuclear weapons, you know. And a lack of cheese and nuclear weapons are not for the fainthearted ruling classes we toil under at the beginning of this second millennium. And don't forget what France does with Acadia...

... or imagine...

... South Ossatia shells Georgia with Russian weapons. Georgia invades South Ossatia. Russia, already present in South Ossatia, invades Georgia to protect Ossatians from Georgians. Or because Georgians killed Russian soldiers. Or because Russia doesn't like the President of Georgia. Or whatever. Russia and Georgia sign a ceasefire agreement and Russia continues firing. What do you expect with a bunch of clowns from the USSR? The rest of the world has some strong words backed up by a whole lot of nothing. The Russians do supply the world with oil and have nuclear weapons you know. And a lack of oil and nuclear weapons are not for the fainthearted ruling classes we toil under at the beginning of this second millennium. And don't forget what Russia does with Abkhazia...

... but you don't have to imagine that because the Russians actually did it. They invaded a sovereign country, who's sovereignty they claim to respect along with the rest of the world. And does anybody who lived through the Cold War believe Russian's excuses? Nope. Do they want to have at the Cold War gig again? Best two out of three? Insanity.

And pulling out of the Middle East? Don't you find that a bit irresponsible since we put up the borders and since we sent all our Jews there, really creating the whole mess? They could only do so much with scimitars, man.

Mr. Whiggamore, I have found a glaring flaw in your argument, so I will have to discard it

Originally Posted by Whiggamore

The French do supply the world with cheese and have nuclear weapons, you know. And a lack of cheese and nuclear weapons are not for the fainthearted ruling classes we toil under at the beginning of this second millennium.

I personally will somehow manage quite well with Stilton which is under Anglo-Saxon control. However I do not think that I could survive even a weak without Burgundy, and you know that's most certainly not the Bordeaux from more or less Brittany....
Of course if you would be so kind to send me 52 cases of Montrachet I have no problem whatsoever with a war lasting a year....

If you decide to look beyond what you see on CNN, FOX, and The New York Times, you may find out what really happens in the world. Georgia was the instigator here and that is exactly what your government and it's media don't want you to know. I don't know about this website but the post is a Rueters report if you follow the "full story" link. I thought the you tube clip of FOX News Sheppard Smith's interview here is probably something that didn't get replayed on that network. I'm not saying that you have to believe me or even this story I linked but don't make up your mind until you are satisfied that you have looked at all possible sources.

» Don’t believe the media. Georgia started the war, not Russia! TIMELINE Dvorak Uncensored: General interest observations and true web-log.

Originally Posted by denmason

Sometimes you have to wonder just what will happen next. Kind of looks like we may get a cold war going again. Can you hear those defense contractors salivating in unison? Yee-HAAAA; we got the cold war back! Start passing all those new taxes! Russia is considering arming its Baltic fleet with nuclear warheads for the first time since the cold war. The new Russian threat comes in response to the conflict in the Caucasus and a deal signed between the United States and Poland for a missile defense shield in Europe. Of course the Russian President Medvedev see's this as a direct threat to his country, smart guy, eh? Then there is Israel, still wanting to attack Iran. This would be foolish to say the least. Think Russia...
Reading further into world wide headlines, I see Ms. Rice was expected to visit Israel and the Palestinian Authority, but that is off now until whenever. I'm thinking there's more to this than what the media has to say about it. The US has been trying to settle the Israeli's down a bit. But, without the visit we might not get to know Israels full intentions on dealing with Iran. Hmmm, so the Bush administration can pretend to be shocked when Israel bombs Iran?
I think this is going to happen, and the US should get out of the middle east all together. Let the countries of the middle east settle their own problems. I think they would if we would leave them be.

This is one of the most astute posts I have ever read in a message board. I don't claim to be smart, but I've seen a lot, and I've been in most countries that the vast majority of people can't even name. I have always made friends wherever I went. That means I usually get a good idea of everymans' conscience. It amazes me that with all our technology and media, we get a less clear picture of what is really going on than many intelligent men in other countries who observe what is going on around them. We as Americans have lost our common sense, and we will pay for that. Sooner rather than later I think, but do not hope.
However, you are wrong if you truly believe they will settle their problems. That will never ever ever happen.

Originally Posted by gugi

Mr. Whiggamore, I have found a glaring flaw in your argument, so I will have to discard it

I personally will somehow manage quite well with Stilton which is under Anglo-Saxon control. However I do not think that I could survive even a weak without Burgundy, and you know that's most certainly not the Bordeaux from more or less Brittany....
Of course if you would be so kind to send me 52 cases of Montrachet I have no problem whatsoever with a war lasting a year....

I have always been a fan of Laughing Cow soft cheese myself. And who can think of a better reason NOT to invade a country than because they make good cheese. In fact, come to think of it the only reason they havent been invaded so far is likely because they make good cheese and wine!

Originally Posted by Ditch Doc

This is one of the most astute posts I have ever read in a message board. I don't claim to be smart, but I've seen a lot, and I've been in most countries that the vast majority of people can't even name. I have always made friends wherever I went. That means I usually get a good idea of everymans' conscience. It amazes me that with all our technology and media, we get a less clear picture of what is really going on than many intelligent men in other countries who observe what is going on around them. We as Americans have lost our common sense, and we will pay for that. Sooner rather than later I think, but do not hope.
However, you are wrong if you truly believe they will settle their problems. That will never ever ever happen.

Very well said, I have also spent time in other countries and have always found that people are people everywhere I've been. What worries me is the leaders and governments of the everymans. Also, I do see that many Americans are starting to look elsewhere for information, see this as good as long as common sense is applied. And no, I don't think the problems in the middle east will ever be settled either. That's just based on the history, but I think the US should be more concerned about the US than any other
country. Let's get it straightened out first. The middle east has oil, if we have the money, they will sell it to us.
I'd go on but Ive been up for 22 hours and the old carcass needs sleep. Good night.

I'm quite enjoying this conversation. I admit not knowing the full internals of the situation, but it seems to me claims that "Georgia started it" are a bit off. Georgia responded roughly to attacks from rebels (call them separatists if you like) within their own country, and in doing so apparently killed some Russian troops. Russia responded by invading.
Perhaps an oversimplification, but Georgia did not invade a sovereign nation here whether or not their hand was too heavy in response, but was attempting to quell an internal rebellion.
So...if Russian troops are killed by Georgians attacking rebels inside Georgia-it would seem to me that Russia always wanted this part of Georgia (or all of it) for themselves. If Russian troops weren't there in the first place...in Georgia....helping/protecting forces which provoked Georgia's counterattack...no Russian troops would have been killed and Putin would have had no reason to invade Georgia in "retaliation" right when Georgia is courting NATO. Oh, and there's the oil.
Again, I could be wrong but this is my current impression.
Next, wrt the west e.g. USA leaving the middle east alone, this would be tough. The elephant in the room is that without the oil from the middle east, thanks to crippling Carter era treaties and laws restricting US production of its own fuel, the US and several other nations' economies would collapse and worse. So at the moment it is a necessary evil. Europe is seemingly in a similar bind with Russia. Putin controls who gets Russia's (and probably Iran's as well) oil. Therefore I do not expect any real action against Russia's interests by Europeans or their allies beyond "a good scolding" in the near future.
Again possibly an oversimplification.
I do feel Putin is planning something big, something requiring him to retain hold on the reigns of Russia's power, but that could be an entirely different discussion but current events seem to support this also. I don't see him releasing power any time soon.
Again just my impressions.

John P.

Great post John my sentiments exactly, we need to keep our eyes on this ball because its not over yet.

So,
1. The Ossetians are not separatists, they simply don't want to live in Georgia. Why? Many centuries of hostility, the Abkhazians too.
2. Georgians are not killed some Russian soldiers and they killed peacekeepers.
Interestingly, what has America made in this situation?
3. Half the residents of Ossetia - that citizens of Russia. Russia defended its citizens.
And if the president of Georgia ran complain to America, it does not mean that he is right.

Originally Posted by JohnP

I'm quite enjoying this conversation. I admit not knowing the full internals of the situation, but it seems to me claims that "Georgia started it" are a bit off. Georgia responded roughly to attacks from rebels (call them separatists if you like) within their own country, and in doing so apparently killed some Russian troops. Russia responded by invading.
Perhaps an oversimplification, but Georgia did not invade a sovereign nation here whether or not their hand was too heavy in response, but was attempting to quell an internal rebellion.
So...if Russian troops are killed by Georgians attacking rebels inside Georgia-it would seem to me that Russia always wanted this part of Georgia (or all of it) for themselves. If Russian troops weren't there in the first place...in Georgia....helping/protecting forces which provoked Georgia's counterattack...no Russian troops would have been killed and Putin would have had no reason to invade Georgia in "retaliation" right when Georgia is courting NATO. Oh, and there's the oil.
Again, I could be wrong but this is my current impression.
Next, wrt the west e.g. USA leaving the middle east alone, this would be tough. The elephant in the room is that without the oil from the middle east, thanks to crippling Carter era treaties and laws restricting US production of its own fuel, the US and several other nations' economies would collapse and worse. So at the moment it is a necessary evil. Europe is seemingly in a similar bind with Russia. Putin controls who gets Russia's (and probably Iran's as well) oil. Therefore I do not expect any real action against Russia's interests by Europeans or their allies beyond "a good scolding" in the near future.
Again possibly an oversimplification.
I do feel Putin is planning something big, something requiring him to retain hold on the reigns of Russia's power, but that could be an entirely different discussion but current events seem to support this also. I don't see him releasing power any time soon.
Again just my impressions.

John P.

I pretty much agree with you here John. Just to nit pick though I think the Russian soldiers were in Ossetia under an arrangement in which they were acting as peacekeepers. That doesn't mean the situation wasn't being manipulated to start something though. I don't think anyone should be suprised that Russia wants a friendly neighbor in place. We seek similar outcomes in our nape of the woods, neck of the wape...in our backyard. Frankly, I'm shocked Russia has allowed so much of Eastern to go where it has...

Jordan