Thread: Palin's Choice for VP

Originally Posted by Hutch

Can't you be a Conservative and believe in science? I guess the belief in science now makes one a leftist. Make way for the Jesus horses at the Whitehouse. Now we can ensure that abstinence is taught to all the the children, it seems to have worked well for the Palin's. We can also stop paying them women the same as men, that has just been a pain.

Actually what needed is an IQ test for voters, 51% of americans surveyed think that new offshore drilling will drop the price of gas with in a year, that a statement about the electorate.

Nothing to do with the current state of the American voter, but Jefferson wanted the electorate to be well educated and understand the issues facing the country when they cast their vote. Now we're all reduced to decisions made based on 15 second sound bites and have little personal responsibility (the one item that actually woke me up during Obama's speech) about what we know of the issues. Except for this august group of intellectuals of course.

It's a lot like playing tennis (any sport) against a much better player, your game gets better. If the expectation is that you are a slacker, you start to act like one. Now where does that fit into public education? voting? citizen participation? Anyone else getting wind of the media "telling us" how we should be by way of who decides what the hot button of the day is? They are the only ones going to make any money off this contest. In that regard, the media are no better than bookies wanting to manipulate the odds and keep the race close, otherwise they got nothing to report.

Another odd thought: (disclaimer, the author has spent way too much time hammering hot steel breathing carbon monoxide) Why shouldn't we franchise the vote? Since apathy is the rule of most US elections, why shouldn't you have to work for your right to vote? In my previous note, serving the US people in some way should be the basis for that right. Go to congress, the senate, some public administrative office, serve in the military, serve in the VA hospitals if you don't want to shoot something, VISTA, the Peace Corps, Americorps, the CCC, etc. Do your two years and maybe with a little sweat equity that vote will mean something.

Look at the brand new democracies. They don't have any trouble pulling majority electoral counts. The US can barely get a portion of that out even when we're excited about it. France's last election pulled 86% of the populace. What the hell is wrong with the longest running democracy on the planet that we don't give a ?

I bet Gov. Palin is a good woman and is trying her best to run Alaska according to her own lights. They are all trying to exercise what they believe. If it's an educated belief, I can live with that, if they win. If it's just follow the leader/drink the coolaid...it's painful.

It appears, from stories in our news media overnight, that Palin was not McCain's first choice as running mate. There is a story circulating that she was "recommended" by advisers because her "pro life" stance will bring the large conservative Christian vote on board. This is in contrast, apparently, to the person McCain initially wanted, who was "pro choice".

I don't know if this is true or not. But even if there is a glimmer of truth in there, it simply serves to reinforce my belief that politics, whether domestically or abroad, whether conservative or liberal, is simply about doing whatever you need to do to gain power. Groucho Marx summed it up well when he said "These are my principles. If you don't like them I have others". Or a slightly more political take on that might be "These are my principles. If you don't like them, tell me in a focus group and I'll make sure someone works out what principles I need to have."

Until someone has the guts to stand up and actually lay down what they really believe in and how they intend to put those beliefs into practice, politics will remain a sordid, cynical, laughable and despicable freak show. I cannot shake the belief that the party elected into government is simply the one who has the best spin doctors.

Here endeth my (off -topic, sorry) rant.

James.

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Nothing to do with the current state of the American voter, but Jefferson wanted the electorate to be well educated and understand the issues facing the country when they cast their vote. Now we're all reduced to decisions made based on 15 second sound bites and have little personal responsibility (the one item that actually woke me up during Obama's speech) about what we know of the issues. Except for this august group of intellectuals of course.

It's a lot like playing tennis (any sport) against a much better player, your game gets better. If the expectation is that you are a slacker, you start to act like one. Now where does that fit into public education? voting? citizen participation? Anyone else getting wind of the media "telling us" how we should be by way of who decides what the hot button of the day is? They are the only ones going to make any money off this contest. In that regard, the media are no better than bookies wanting to manipulate the odds and keep the race close, otherwise they got nothing to report.

Another odd thought: (disclaimer, the author has spent way too much time hammering hot steel breathing carbon monoxide) Why shouldn't we franchise the vote? Since apathy is the rule of most US elections, why shouldn't you have to work for your right to vote? In my previous note, serving the US people in some way should be the basis for that right. Go to congress, the senate, some public administrative office, serve in the military, serve in the VA hospitals if you don't want to shoot something, VISTA, the Peace Corps, Americorps, the CCC, etc. Do your two years and maybe with a little sweat equity that vote will mean something.

Look at the brand new democracies. They don't have any trouble pulling majority electoral counts. The US can barely get a portion of that out even when we're excited about it. France's last election pulled 86% of the populace. What the hell is wrong with the longest running democracy on the planet that we don't give a ?

I bet Gov. Palin is a good woman and is trying her best to run Alaska according to her own lights. They are all trying to exercise what they believe. If it's an educated belief, I can live with that, if they win. If it's just follow the leader/drink the coolaid...it's painful.

You talk of "personal responsibilities" yet you make excuses for the state of the electorate. The voters and many Americans have chosen to be ignorant and uneducated, it' not the fault of the school system, the media, the government or anyone else. Personal responsibility begins there, if you aren't educated, get educated, if you are ignorant of the issues, become informed. In all honesty in this day and age its never been easier to get educated and informed.

Originally Posted by Hutch

You talk of "personal responsibilities" yet you make excuses for the state of the electorate. The voters and many Americans have chosen to be ignorant and uneducated, it' not the fault of the school system, the media, the government or anyone else. Personal responsibility begins there, if you aren't educated, get educated, if you are ignorant of the issues, become informed. In all honesty in this day and age its never been easier to get educated and informed.

Hutch, what woke me was Obama talking about personal responsibilities. I've not heard politicians expecting that from the crowd. I'd say that generally, the desire for those who want to control behavior, is to have us all not question and not act in individual ways, responsible or not. My best example of that doctrine is how Pol Pot manipulated a society to exterminate the majority of the educated portion of an entire culture. Without an educated populace there was no one left capable of differentiating between bad, good enough and better. If there was no one to dream of a better life, the herd simply went along with the murderous masters, who by the way were mostly a few old men and a lot of uneducated but well indoctrinated teenagers who chose to believe what they were told by men with guns.

Maybe it would be best to say that the potential for easy access to information exists, but other conditions can interfere with the willingness to go after it. Choices can be manipulated by any portion of the system including the individual. I'm certain that despite it being easy to get information, there are individuals who attend to learning but never realize that the teacher, political party, government entity or medial outlet are biased and do not fairly report their bias or expect the learner to search for contradictions. The learner may simply achieve their lowest level of satisfaction and stop seeking more information because they are comfortable with what they know, even if that knowledge is incomplete. In the Khmer case, survival meant that knowledge was death, personal responsibility was death. It's not so easy is it?

I agree that choosing to be ignorant is a sad state and personal responsibility is a good thing. I'm glad we live in a society that allows us the freedom to choose, the freedom to debate such things, and I'm guilty of changing the direction of this thread somewhat.

All humans are biased, to expect anything different is foolhardy. That's why there should be more than one source, whether be for what you're taught, read, or told. The beauty of education is that it teaches more than singular subject matter, it should teach you how to learn. The populace has become lazy all on its own.

I don't know anyone who's being put to death for knowledge in the US, so pining over the state of the US electorate and comparing it to what went on in Cambodia is really an exercise in excuse making to a monumental proportion.

Originally Posted by Hutch

All humans are biased, to expect anything different is foolhardy. That's why there should be more than one source, whether be for what you're taught, read, or told. The beauty of education is that it teaches more than singular subject matter, it should teach you how to learn. The populace has become lazy all on its own.

I don't know anyone who's being put to death for knowledge in the US, so pining over the state of the US electorate and comparing it to what went on in Cambodia is really an exercise in excuse making to a monumental proportion.

Okay so you're of the camp that that says we are all whiners involved in a mental recession. I'm making the point that you can have all the education you want, but circumstances outside any individual may develop that will prevent the exercise of that learning. The individual can choose to learn, but they can also choose to act improperly with all that education, and conditions outside the human being also have an impact on what they choose to learn and how they act. My point about Cambodia is that those conditions can be manipulated both internally and externally. You want to keep the argument limited to only what the individual can do.

What you're not choosing to see is that we really agree more than we disagree. Your field of view is smaller or narrower than mine. This is a discussion about a spectrum of behavior and no one person can be extracted from the influences of the whole society they live in. If we acknowledge that perhaps some outside agent can influence individual behavior, then the Cambodian example is the most extreme one I can offer of how a society can exterminate education and suppress behavior. Complete social engineering and reworking the entire educational system of a society will not eliminate the individual mind, but it certainly curtails freedom to act by that individual. It's a very simple example of what you want to deny, that forces outside a person can affect how they learn and act.

It's not as complicated as trying to make the same point by showing how the content of textbooks limits learning choices or say, school prayers, regardless of cosmology, are really the expectation of regimented corporate behavior, as in a showing of public cooperation. Or that attendance in school everyday, on time, eyes open, ears on, is somehow more important to learning than what is going on in their heads. Those are more subtle and a little closer to home.

Where members of this forum stand politically really doesn't matter to me. In fact, I think it is in poor taste to bring up politics in ANY social setting. The media is absolutely leaning LEFT. Gov. Palin is an example of a woman having achieved success by hard work. The smear campaign she is experiencing is a disgrace and shows the downfall of modern journalism.

I will not share my political views. I spent my entire adult life in Emergency Services and am 100% disabled due to Duty-related injuries and consider myself lucky to be alive. I see the world differently than many who advise others on what they should or shouldn't believe in, take part of and talk sh*^ about.

Regardless of your opinion of McCain, Obama and Washington, D.C. in general. It is very obvious that we are a divided country. The venomous treatment of ALL candidates makes me wonder why anyone would seek public office. This is a critical time in our history and I guess we'll all find out the real deal in November.

Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

Where members of this forum stand politically really doesn't matter to me. ...

Regardless of your opinion of ...

The venomous treatment of ...

Lt, pardon me if I stand squarely next to your side. Because of your service, I think you've earned the right to speak up.

While I think politics is okay to talk about, the subject matter often lacks a reasoned approach and devolves rapidly away from the country's business into personalities and camps. My father allowed for passion to be expressed, but expected reasoned discussion about any subject, my mother banned such things over dinner because he had a tendency to throw food when he figured out I had him in the argument.

What offends me the most this year is any good American calling other good Americans evil and getting away with it. Unless he's prepared to indict someone for high crimes and misdimeanors, where they really are evil and judged by a legitimate court to be so, that tactic is as old as 1937.

Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

Where members of this forum stand politically really doesn't matter to me. In fact, I think it is in poor taste to bring up politics in ANY social setting. The media is absolutely leaning LEFT. Gov. Palin is an example of a woman having achieved success by hard work. The smear campaign she is experiencing is a disgrace and shows the downfall of modern journalism.

I will not share my political views. I spent my entire adult life in Emergency Services and am 100% disabled due to Duty-related injuries and consider myself lucky to be alive. I see the world differently than many who advise others on what they should or shouldn't believe in, take part of and talk sh*^ about.

Regardless of your opinion of McCain, Obama n Washington, D.C. in general. It is very obvious that we are a divided country. The venomous treatment of ALL candidates makes me wonder why anyone would seek public office. This is a critical time in our history and I guess we'll all find out the real deal in November.

Couldn't agree with you more, this preoccupation with perfection is ridicules. Most wouldn't subject themselves to this scrutiny.

As for Palin personally I don't see asking basic questions as "a smear campaign". I'd like to know who is she professionally and politically, what has she done professionally and politically, what has she stood for in the past politically, what does she stand for now politically, and what are her views on issues such as health care, education, foreign affairs, defense, trade, and the economy. If asking for answers to those is a "smear campaign" then I guess I want a smear campaign.

Personally I don't care that she's a hockey mom, hunts, fishes, her daughter is pregnant nor the fact that she exercised her right to choose to have her baby with down syndrome or the fact that she is the most popular governor in the country (wow she's been governor of the small state of Alaska and hasn't ****ed that many people off yet in 2 years). Lets get to the "meat and potatoes" because lets face it she's likely to be the next President.

For the "smear campaign" reference personally I think everyone has basically handled her with kid gloves, for fear of looking sexists. The brunt of the criticism that I have seen and heard has more to do with Mc Cain's judgement for picking her and passing over so many others that actually have lots more experience.

If she had ran for President on her own do you thin she'd have been the Republican nominee, I doubt anyone can say yes with a straight face, so why should the American public just accept her, considering Mc Cain's advanced age, and past health problems that do cast doubt on his ability to complete four years let alone 8 years.

to all those arguing about median, mean, etc. median is the middle number in a list. so, not quite half above, not quite half below. hutch, i have a degree in math, so what i said was intentional and considered.

i was trying to make a sarcastic point about the usefulness of statistics in cases like these, e.g. just because it is correct doesn't mean it's useful in any way.

sarcasm totally misunderstood, ignore it and move on.