Thread: What are your Thoughts?

Originally Posted by iron maiden

but I really don't think voting for a 3rd party candidate is even feasible. It is a shame there isn't just one of them whom we could all go for. I think that might surprise everybody if somebody like Chuck Baldwin actually won.

Isn't competition good? It's true that the two big parties have sort of a monopoly position, but if people like a 3rd party product better, last time I checked US is still a democracy. Of course, the 3rd parties have to first demonstrate that they are worth 2c. In any case the political machine works because voters let it work.

I don't vote, but if I did at this point I'd vote Obama. McCain is not the person I'd like in control of US foreign policy - he has consistently been too rash to unnecessarily make a call, which can be justified only if it's at least the right one, and I disagree with most of them. When it comes to the nuclear knob, I'd take a less experienced but thoughtful and cool headed person to an angry old man who despite all his experience hasn't learned to control himself.

Originally Posted by gugi

last time I checked US is still a democracy.

Last time I checked it was still a Republic... even though the media keeps telling us it's a democracy. Very different animals.

Originally Posted by denmason

Last time I checked it was still a Republic... even though the media keeps telling us it's a democracy. Very different animals.

Here we go again... Dennis, check your dictionaries, a current one, old ones. If you insist they are different I would ask that you provide definitions and a source for them. We need to be able to communicate and to do so effectively we must understand the meaning of the words we use.
I am not a native English speaker, so I like to use words with their widely accepted meaning and not the one that a small community may like.
My understanding is that USA is a republic AND a representative democracy. It is not a monarchy, it is not a theocracy, and it is not a dictatorship.
My question to you is the same - what is USA. For extra credit, what about Great Britain?

Originally Posted by iron maiden

Didn't South Park come up with the idea for our choices a while back?

Who to vote for?
...a giant douche?
...or a giant turd?


Either way, we're not left with much of a choice....and 3rd party is unfortunately too far diluted to make a difference....remember Ross Perot. Only this time, there's Bob Barr, Ralph Nader, Chuck Baldwin, etc......more choices to further spread the dissenters vote to make sure one of the 2 main candidates gets it.

...overall, I might just abstain. McCain isn't worth a damn, and Obama might as well be openly communist.

At this point I don't know what to do. I don't want to compromise my integrity like Denmason says and help one of the main players get it by default by voting for the lesser of two evils, but I really don't think voting for a 3rd party candidate is even feasible. It is a shame there isn't just one of them whom we could all go for. I think that might surprise everybody if somebody like Chuck Baldwin actually won.

Turd sandwich was the second choice.

I am of the opinion that the Republican party, when in power, drives the bus to hell at a stately 55 miles per hour. The Democrats, in power, mash the accelerator. That's how I see the "two" choices. There are fundamental differences in the foreign policy and taxes between the evil of two lessers we have as main choices, but ultimately both will take us to the same end unless we come back to a somewhat isolationist and firmly constitutional way of running this country. (i.e., there's nowhere in the Constitution that says the president is the leader of the free world, or has any obligation to go to any other country and tell them what they need to do.) Sadly, a return to what the nation should be will not be caused by voting for just the president, no matter which you vote for this time. There are three branches, and all three need a good housecleaning.

I keep things very simple I don't vote the candidate they are all just politicians....

Pick out your trigger (pun intended) issues, what are the top three things that you care about, and cast your vote on that...

For me there is obviously one issue that stands to the forefront on every election (GsSIXGUN)..... I will never vote for anybody, that stands against my 2nd amendment rights, period end of story....

Originally Posted by gugi

Here we go again... Dennis, check your dictionaries, a current one, old ones. If you insist they are different I would ask that you provide definitions and a source for them. We need to be able to communicate and to do so effectively we must understand the meaning of the words we use.
I am not a native English speaker, so I like to use words with their widely accepted meaning and not the one that a small community may like.
My understanding is that USA is a republic AND a representative democracy. It is not a monarchy, it is not a theocracy, and it is not a dictatorship.
My question to you is the same - what is USA. For extra credit, what about Great Britain?

Once again, and I hope this won't be taken as "off topic", but.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, indivisible, with justice and liberty for all.

The children don't say this Pledge of Allegiance in school anymore because it directly contradicts the government propaganda in an irrefutable fashion.
Furthermore, the Constitution itself guarantees a "republican form of government", at Article 4 Section 4, it states: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,"

America is a Republic, a constitutional Republic of a democratic (one man - one vote) nature. However, we are not a democracy where the majority rules. That is government propaganda designed to condition you to accept their injustice and believe that there is nothing that you can do about it. The difference between a Democracy and a Republic is that in a Republic there are certain things that can never be done no matter how many people want to do it ! The rights of no individual or group can ever be removed or diminished (because that group may be currently unpopular (for whatever reason)), regardless of how many people vote to do so. In a Republic, even if the vote is 250 million to 1, that one cannot be thrown into slavery. In a pure democracy 51% of the men can vote the other 49% back into slavery if they wish. Or, they can vote to steal your property (sound familiar), but not in a Republic (if the Constitution or the law forbids it, which ours DOES). Our founding fathers hated democracy, recognizing that it is nothing more than social slavery to the poular hysteria of the masses (sound familiar). They wanted a representative (democratic) system, but not a pure democracy, and they did not establish a democracy in the Constitution, they established a Republic, a Constitutional Republic.


Democracy:A government of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is comunistic-negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate. whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demagogism license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
Democracy is the "direct" rule of the people and has been repeatedly tried without success.
A certain Professor Alexander Fraser Tytler, nearly two centuries ago, had this to say about Democracy: " A Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of Government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess out of public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that Democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy, always to be followed by a Dictatorship."
A democracyis majority rule and is destructive of liberty because there is no law to prevent the majority from trampling on individual rights. Whatever the majority says goes! A lynch mob is an example of pure democracy in action. There is only one dissenting vote, and that is cast by the person at the end of the rope.

Republic:
Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them.
Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights, and a sensible economic procedure.
Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.
A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass.
Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress.
Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.
A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of:

1. an executive and
2. a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create
3. a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their governmental acts and to recognize
4. certain inherent individual rights.

Take away any one or more of those four elements and you are drifting into autocracy. Add one or more to those four elements and you are drifting into democracy.
Our Constitutional fathers, familiar with the strength and weakness of both autocracy and democracy, with fixed principles definitely in mind, defined a representative republican form of government. They "made a very marked distinction between a republic and a democracy and said repeatedly and emphatically that they had founded a republic."
A republicis a government of law under a Constitution. The Constitution holds the government in check and prevents the majority (acting through their government) from violating the rights of the individual. Under this system of government a lynch mob is illegal. The suspected criminal cannot be denied his right to a fair trial even if a majority of the citizenry demands otherwise.
Democracy and Republic are often taken as one of the same thing, but there is a fundamental difference. Whilst in both cases the government is elected by the people, in Democracy the majority rules according to their whims, whilst in the Republic the Government rule according to law. This law is framed in the Constitution to limit the power of Government and ensuring some rights and protection to Minorities and individuals. These two forms of government: Democracy and Republic, are not only dissimilar but antithetical, reflecting the sharp contrast between (a) The Majority Unlimited, in a Democracy, lacking any legal safeguard of the rights of The Individual and The Minority, and (b) The Majority Limited, in a Republic under a written Constitution safeguarding the rights of The Individual and The Minority.

Originally Posted by maplemaker

Turd sandwich was the second choice.

Thanks for the update...I didn't check that until way after I posted.

And in an attempt to get my point back out of the gutter....I just want to concur with Glen...whomever is opposed to the 2nd Amendment, does NOT get my vote. America is not Europe...Europe is Europe, and America is America....we have guns, they don't....I'd kinda like to keep mine, thank you very much.


I just realized...I'm talking about politics...I have crossed the threshold.

I agree, it's a good way to choose. Too bad neither candidate is really on our side when it comes to guns.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I keep things very simple I don't vote the candidate they are all just politicians....

Pick out your trigger (pun intended) issues, what are the top three things that you care about, and cast your vote on that...

For me there is obviously one issue that stands to the forefront on every election (GsSIXGUN)..... I will never vote for anybody, that stands against my 2nd amendment rights, period end of story....

Denmason's post is really interesting... thanks for all the info. There is a clear opiion in it but still, many thanks. I didn't realize that the US was not a "pure democracy". But the arguments seem reasonable enough to stand... And freedom is just that: "I may not agree to what you say, but I will fight for your right to say it..."

I'm really far away from America and, as you americans know and understand, the image that the US have in Europe is rather... foggy! So we really do not know jus how it works and I have the feeling that a lot of americans do not understand the way their country reall works in what concerns the funcioning of their political system... but one thing that always strikes me as being odd is the frequency in which I hear americans say "I don't vote!" Why is that?! I understand that it's a right not to vote... but isn't it a strronger duty to do just the oposite? Isn't it your duty to vote as to ensure that you have the right not to vote?... Will someone explain this to me? I, for one, consider voting a very important thing and I haven't missed any election or referendum since I was of age, that meaning 18 years old.

Plus, as an information that I would like to request, can someone explain to me just how the election system in the US works? Sure... it's not universal sufrage (is this a word?...) because you cannot count 300 milion votes... So... how?