Thread: The conflict in Gaza.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

IIRC they created the Palestinian state of Trans-Jordan before they created the Jewish state of Israel. This is not a pro Israeli statement just a look at the timeline of events.

The timeline could also be stated to be spelled out in Numbers 34

1 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Command the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When you come into the land of Canaan, this is the land that shall fall to you as an inheritance--the land of Canaan to its boundaries. 3 Your southern border shall be from the Wilderness of Zin along the border of Edom; then your southern border shall extend eastward to the end of the Salt Sea; 4 your border shall turn from the southern side of the Ascent of Akrabbim, continue to Zin, and be on the south of Kadesh Barnea; then it shall go on to Hazar Addar, and continue to Azmon; 5 the border shall turn from Azmon to the Brook of Egypt, and it shall end at the Sea. 6 'As for the western border, you shall have the Great Sea for a border; this shall be your western border. 7 'And this shall be your northern border: From the Great Sea you shall mark out your border line to Mount Hor; 8 from Mount Hor you shall mark out your border to the entrance of Hamath; then the direction of the border shall be toward Zedad; 9 the border shall proceed to Ziphron, and it shall end at Hazar Enan. This shall be your northern border. 10 'You shall mark out your eastern border from Hazar Enan to Shepham; 11 the border shall go down from Shepham to Riblah on the east side of Ain; the border shall go down and reach to the eastern side of the Sea of Chinnereth; 12 the border shall go down along the Jordan, and it shall end at the Salt Sea. This shall be your land with its surrounding boundaries.' "

Or even earlier in Genesis with God's commandment to Abraham, Genesis 12:

1 The Lord had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

The timeline could also be stated to be spelled out in Numbers 34



Or even earlier in Genesis with God's commandment to Abraham, Genesis 12:

Appealing to the authority of the bible is a double-edged sword. About twenty years ago I read Arthur Koestler's book, The Thirteenth Tribe, in which he argues that most Ashkenazi (European Jews) are not descendents of the Israelites that lived in Palestine 2000 years ago, but are, instead, descended from a Turkish tribe, the Khazars, that converted to Judaism. So, one morning, as I was shaving, I looked at my face in the mirror and asked myself, "Who do I see, Yassir Arafat or Boris Yeltsin?" I saw Yeltsin and that clinches it for me. IMO, European Jews, who make up the majority of the population of Israel, have no biblical claim to the land because they aren't descended from people who lived there. There is a current book in Hebrew by an Israeli scholar whose name I don't remember (Sand, I think) who says that most of the Jews of the world are descended from converts and that the Palestinians are probably the closest descendents of the original Israelites.

@ Seraphim, I did not intend a biblical debate. What I wanted to convey was that the powers of the time(Great Britain) gave the area now known as Jordan to the Palestinains and then gave land to support the future state of Israel. Therefore the Palestinians clamoring for a "Palestinian Homeland" have already had it for quite sometime.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

@ Seraphim, I did not intend a biblical debate. What I wanted to convey was that the powers of the time(Great Britain) gave the area now known as Jordan to the Palestinains and then gave land to support the future state of Israel. Therefore the Palestinians clamoring for a "Palestinian Homeland" have already had it for quite sometime.

That is as I understand it!

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

@ Seraphim, I did not intend a biblical debate. What I wanted to convey was that the powers of the time(Great Britain) gave the area now known as Jordan to the Palestinains and then gave land to support the future state of Israel. Therefore the Palestinians clamoring for a "Palestinian Homeland" have already had it for quite sometime.

Actually, the UN partitioned Palestine between Israel and the Palestinians in 1948. Israel immediately took more than its share through ethnic cleansing and then the rest in 1967. Palestinians who lived in Israel have valid claims to the land and refugees living in other Arab countries have a right to return.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

@ Seraphim, I did not intend a biblical debate. What I wanted to convey was that the powers of the time(Great Britain) gave the area now known as Jordan to the Palestinains and then gave land to support the future state of Israel. Therefore the Palestinians clamoring for a "Palestinian Homeland" have already had it for quite sometime.

I just threw that up there for what it is, not necessarily using it as a "proof".

That the British "gave" the Palastinians Jordan, while taking away from them coastal Isreal, doesn't seem like it would make me so very happy if I were Palestinian.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

I just threw that up there for what it is, not necessarily using it as a "proof".

That the British "gave" the Palastinians Jordan, while taking away from them coastal Isreal, doesn't seem like it would make me so very happy if I were Palestinian.

Agreed! IMO the Brits had no business there at all, let alone dividing someone elses land, but then again it was the age of Colonialism. How do you go back and fix everything? Who is fit for that kind of responsibility and can come up with that kind of authority without causing worlwide pandemonium?If you tried to go back it would tick off half the world, if you froze things in place it would tick off the other half and if you tried to compromise, the whole world would be up in arms.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Agreed! IMO the Brits had no business there at all, let alone dividing someone else land, but then again it was the age of Colonialism. How do you go back anf fix everything?

Right. And that's the crux of the problem, isn't it?

My point is that it is difficult to say "The Isrealiis are to blame..." or "the Palestinians are to blame..." because they are both in an untenable situation.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Right. And that's the crux of the problem, isn't it?

My point is that it is difficult to say "The Isrealiis are to blame..." or "the Palestinians are to blame..." because they are both in an untenable situation.

Why is the Israeli position untenable? They have the fourth largest army in the world and the largest in the Middle East. They are a nuclear power. They could easily negotiate a peace settlement and, if it was at least half-way fair, it would stick and the US would guarantee it. Of course, if it didn't stick, they would still have the resources to squash the other guy.

There are people in Israel who have a vision of a "greater Israel" that extends to the Tigris and Euphrates, i.e., including Iraq. If they get away with exterminating the Palestines, I really wonder where, if ever, they will stop.

If theyve got the 4th largest army as well as nuclear weapons and are bent on a greater Isreal, why havent they done it? BTW didnt they broker a land for peace settlement no too long ago? I fully realize that Israel has its fundamental extremists, every issue does.