I thought Mark was quoting the plutonian ode by Allen Ginsberg... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by icedog
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I thought Mark was quoting the plutonian ode by Allen Ginsberg... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by icedog
"well sir, i may not agree with what you say but i will defend to the death your right to say it" i in no way agree with what this guy does in fact i think it is really terrible but i also dont think there is any reason someone should have to suffer the most painful cancer for the way they think no matter how deranged it may be. although i wouldnt miss him if something were to happen to him, just my feelings on that. i am active duty and am returning to the desert for the second time shortly and believe me alot of the members in the armed forces really know how much support there is for them weather anybody supports the actual war or not and it is appreciated, so thank you all i have see the support that comes just from this group and it is amazingQuote:
Originally Posted by JimR
-dan-
I did 12 years in the Army. and this is what i realized while i was in. soldiers, airmen, marines and sailors alike, even if we don't believe in the fight we are in, will do our jobs to serve our country.
Not because it's fun to shoot people
Not because we have to or we get in trouble
Not because we want high fives when we get back
But because we all believe in the idea of a country where people are free to voice their opinions, choose their leaders, and lives their lives however they choose. We believe in that concept so much that we are willing to put our lives on the line to protect not only our country, but do it despite what the media says.
somehow, i didn't go to afghanistan or iraq (pretty sure GOD had something to do with that), but i spoke with one of my buddies when he got back and he said the "good job" and the beer that his dad gave him when he got back was more than he needed to know he did the right thing.
just remember, living your life for yourself is ordinary, the military is extra-ordinary.
essayons
I have been told by dear friends from Israel that every Isreali goes into the military for two years when they reach 18 years old. I think in a country that seems to be always involved in some turmoil that mandatory service is a necessary evil. In the United States of America we have a completely volunteer military. I know that alot of people join because they are given a choice by a judge of enlist or go to jail. I know alot of people get hustled by recruiters who promise the enlistee all sorts of things they can't deliver. When I was in basic training there was a kid in my company who was completely illiterate. His recruiter took the entrance exam for him. There are alot of examples of folks who enlist because their options are severely limited. Hey, I can admit that if my parents had the money to send me to college I certainly would not have joined the Navy. But I am glad I did enlist. I recognize that most people in the service would rather be doing something else and for whatever reason(s) they are serving in the defence of their country. And yes, that choice, that willingness to die for the same knuckleheads that call them baby killers or protest at their fallen buddy's funeral makes them more special than someone who rode the smooth ride on Daddy's ticket and went to school to become a doctor or lawyer. Personally I believe that a four year enlistment in the military before college would make for a better student.
There has been much great input to this thread (and some idiotic trash). I see to some it is hard to believe that there are many Support Our Troops magnets on the cars of people who do indeed feel that the very act of displaying that magnet has somehow done something positive for the individual soldier. The week after the 9/11 attacks I was getting out of my car in the parking lot at work in Stamford, Connecticut. The manager of Drafting Department was getting out of his SUV right next to me when he said, "Hey Brad, where's your flag?"
As I looked at the four or five flags and flag stickers with which his car was festooned I replied, "If you think covering your car with plastic flags somehow makes you patriotic congratulations, you are a hero in your own mind. I gave up four years of my life defending your country and that flag. Don't you ever question my patriotism."
I agree with a lot of what you say, but a 4 year stint in the army is a gigantic waste of time for people who don't actually plan to stay on afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by icedog
Not only does the pay suck for regular enlisted soldiers (at least it did here) but there is a significant amount of people that just don't fit into the rigid military hierarchy. Forcing them into that structure for 4 years would probably do more damage than good to their long term productivity, creativity and career advancement, with no benefit.
Also, you cannot just quit studying for 4 years and then jump back in where you left off. You'd have forgotten so much that you essentially have to start over in whatever it is you want to do.
And from the other side, it would be very expensive to pay those people and make sure that they have supporting infrastructure (bases, vehicles, weapins, ...).
With 300 million Americans, lets say 4% is eligible for duty. That's 12 million soldiers you have to pay, feed, and house. And unless there is a shortage of soldiers, they won't be doing anything useful.
I've been reading this thread with great interest and I must say that I agree with Brad heartly. Planting a flag or a magnet on a car is, to me, not the right way to display patriotism or support for any given thing. A car is means of transportation. The support you give to anything has to be in actions.
I am not american but I've been a powerless spectator to what has happened since September 2001 and I'm sure that such an event must have been excruciatingly traumatic to the american people in general. I'm not going to debate the validity of the arguments that are pro war - that could be discussed in another thread that I WILL NOT start. But now that you're in it, you have to support the troops. And Brad, to me, is right on the money. People tend to simplify things and planting a flag or something is, to that particular individual, a patriotic action. It really isn't, in fact. It's an action of propaganda. Sending stuff that reminds those boys of home is a patriotic action in my book. I'm sorry if this offends the guys here that have magnets on their cars - I understand your position, I really do, because it strikes me that you regard those as a reminder, as a simbolic little nothing that keeps your patriotism up and running so that you can do something really useful to support the boys overseas. But you have to admit that there are many who consider a patriotic action per se to put a flag on the car... and that, I think, is what Brad is saying.
There are portuguese military in Iraq and Afghanistan as well, I'm not sure if you are aware of this. And also british soldiers, italians, spanish and germans... They are fighting a war that isn't theirs. They are there for a number of reasons - but most are there because they feel that it is their duty to help our american friend that often forgets about us. Don't forget this. You started this on your own but you are not alone in the sandbox mess... Helping each other out is one of the things that comes in an alliance. That is important. And it is also important to stress out that there are portuguese boys involved in a war that isn't theirs - especially considering that when we got involved in the Timor Lorosae conflict (between Timor and Indonesia) and we requested the help of the US to keep peace in the territory and bring to an end the independence of Timor in a peaceful way, the US refused to get involved. Many thanks to the Australians who went in and helped...
You started a war that strikes me - as it does Brad - as unfair. But we, the portuguese, jumped in and helped out in the process of keeping the peace after the warfare ended. Don't be arrogant, my american friends. There are other boys and girls from other nations that are helping you cleaning up the mess. Your bumper stickers should have a broader sense... they should read "Support the allies". Do you support the portuguese boys in Iraq? I doubt that you have ever thought about it.
Hope this doesn't offend anyone. I'm just trying to bring something else into the discussion.
I appreciate your input Bruno but i wonder what would make you say this? I see kids coming out of high school and going on to higher education with a sense of freedom but no sense of duty or conviction. I believe (and I am not alone) that a youg person who goes through basic training for the military is much more prepared to be an adult, working harder toward more carefully defined goals. I think if you were to ask the experts in the human resources world they will tell you that veterans make better employees becaue they are more prepared and dedicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Perhaps. But 4 years is a very long time. And as I already indicated, the military is not a place for free thinkers or questioning authority. 4 years in the military would be devastating to many people.
Perhaps HR thinks that veterans make better employees, and from their point of view that may very well be true. Military people are used to a) obeying orders b) respecting paperwork c) respecting chain of command.
But I also know that military people ending up in ICT management positions can also end up causing big problems because they insist on having a rigid chain of command, and expecting people to obey without being open for discussion. And that is not the best way to lead a team of developers or system administrators. You can't herd cats.
The military is a good fit for some things and for some people, but also a bad fit for other things and other people. That does not mean I have disrespect for it, but forcing everybody through it for 4 years is not going to be a big success any more than forcing everybody through 4 years of college.
Different strokes for different people. A population that comes out of a cookie cutter is not that useful
I think that the idea of national service is a good one, and it doesn't necessarily have to be in the military. There are lots of social services that could use an infusion of manpower such as daycare nurseries and nursing homes, transporting the handicapped, working to construct public projects like the old WPA, etc.
A 1 year national service draft is not a bad idea. There are plenty of opportunities where help would come in handy and where people would learn some valuable lessons about life. There is a lot of partiotic work to be done outside the military .
My objections where to the 4 years (4 years without decent pay, loss of relevant knowledge about your field of education) and to the fact that it had to be (in Brads post) military.