Thread: Buffalo NY beheading

Murder is never ok (I assume you were sarcastic) but the difference is that here in the west, 'we' can do something about it and 'we' don't tolerate it.
In the east, what 'we' think is irrelevant because whatever they do up there is out of our control.

I absolutely despise the fact that women have no rights in countries like Iran, and that being raped can be a hanging offense (or was it stoning?). But it would be silly to say that I don't tolerate it. I am in no position to make a decision to be tolerant.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Murder is never ok (I assume you were sarcastic) but the difference is that here in the west, 'we' can do something about it and 'we' don't tolerate it.
In the east, what 'we' think is irrelevant because whatever they do up there is out of our control.

I absolutely despise the fact that women have no rights in countries like Iran, and that being raped can be a hanging offense (or was it stoning?). But it would be silly to say that I don't tolerate it. I am in no position to make a decision to be tolerant.

I feel that the OP's intent was to give us an example of Muslim barbarity, as if no white American has ever cut up his wife and shipped her body in a suitcase, in order to, indirectly, support the "clash of cultures" justification of US foreign policy. I cannot support the concept that we "in the west" are more civilized than the people of the "east" so long as we, or our allies, are dropping white phosphorus bombs on children because they live near a terrorist, know a terrorist or have heard the word terrorst or whatever facile excuse we can come up with for slaughter on a grand scale.

Such things happen here too, occasionally.
But in islamic cultures (at least in those who have sharia law), it is inherent in the system, and women are always treated worse, with capital punishment being a possibility even for being raped.
And in some islamic countries, honor killings are not a crime.

Say what you want about the west, but at least we don't have that situation.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Such things happen here too, occasionally.
But in islamic cultures (at least in those who have sharia law), it is inherent in the system, and women are always treated worse, with capital punishment being a possibility even for being raped.
And in some islamic countries, honor killings are not a crime.

Say what you want about the west, but at least we don't have that situation.

It wasn't that long ago that a wife's adultery was a justification for murder in Europe and that blacks could be lynched with impunity in the southern United States. What you say regarding certain practices of other cultures is true but, as Mathew 7:3 says,

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

How do you justify sniping at other cultures when our western culture is intrinsically so much more violent? Some estimates say that the west's 10-year embargo of Iraq killed over a million children but that's OK because we did it in the name of "democracy".

Originally Posted by Chimensch

It wasn't that long ago that a wife's adultery was a justification for murder in Europe and that blacks could be lynched with impunity in the southern United States. What you say regarding certain practices of other cultures is true but, as Mathew 7:3 says,

But the key thing here is that what you talk about is past tense.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

when talking about women's rights and social status, it isn't a matter of a mote and a beam.
The mote is in our eye, the beam in theirs.
Just because we have problems too does not mean that this specific problem is not a problem with certain islamic cultures, and pointing that out is in no way arrogant.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

How do you justify sniping at other cultures when our western culture is intrinsically so much more violent? Some estimates say that the west's 10-year embargo of Iraq killed over a million children but that's OK because we did it in the name of "democracy".

I am not going into the war debate here, because that wasn't up for discussion.
It was about the treatement of women in society / honor killings.
And looking at the current state of society, then those cultures are -in that area- much more barbaric than ours. No amount of discussion here is going to change that.

Originally Posted by Bruno

But the key thing here is that what you talk about is past tense.



when talking about women's rights and social status, it isn't a matter of a mote and a beam.
The mote is in our eye, the beam in theirs.
Just because we have problems too does not mean that this specific problem is not a problem with certain islamic cultures, and pointing that out is in no way arrogant.

Oh, I don't know. It wasn't that long ago that James Kopp murdered Barnett Slepian in the name of Jesus, and that was outside Buffalo as well.

j

It could still happen today. But it is not the dominant cultural behavior, and society doesn't condone it.
Nutcases are of all times and nationalities.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I am not going into the war debate here, because that wasn't up for discussion.
It was about the treatement of women in society / honor killings.
And looking at the current state of society, then those cultures are -in that area- much more barbaric than ours. No amount of discussion here is going to change that.

May I paraphrase your argument?

"I don't want to talk about my violence, I only want to talk about theirs ... and I'm going to define the topic to be discussed so narrowly that I win and demonstrate that my culture is superior."

Have I got it right, or did I miss something?

"Civilised" is a relative term. If you go back as far as the Crusades it's fair to say that the West (at least as far West as existed back then) was every bit as barbaric as the rest of the world, if not more so. Not being judgemental - that's just the way things were back then, it was a different world with different standards. But Western societies have since moved in the right direction. People now have more rights, more respect, more wealth and better health. "We" have become more civilised.

Sadly it's not easy to say the same of some Middle Eastern cultures. In many places their mind set is still stuck in the Dark Ages. They think the Holy Wars are still on, or at least they want to reignite them. Some of thier core beliefs and religions are a positive stumbling block to being civilised, at least when extremists gain influence.

It's good to see that many people from those places are decent people, who don't just claim that their religion is a peaceful one but also act as good people and speak out against the extremists. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot to dislike from those cultures.

We are constantly being told to embrace diversity, respect other cultures, be tolerant, yada yada yada. But I'm sorry, you have to draw the line somewhere. I'm not going to respect that which is not respectable. When people do something wrong we should be allowed to speak out against it freely without someone trying to silence us in the name of political correctness.

So-called "honour killings" are a perfect example. There is nothing honourable about them, nor the people who believe in them, nor the cultures, religions and law systems that allow them.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

May I paraphrase your argument?

"I don't want to talk about my violence, I only want to talk about theirs ... and I'm going to define the topic to be discussed so narrowly that I win and demonstrate that my culture is superior."

Have I got it right, or did I miss something?

You missed something which I thought was obvious.

I didn't say my culture is superior. It isn't. It's just different.
Instead, I specifically said that it was superior in this narrowly defined scope. I didn't narrow the debate to draw broad conclusions, which is what you imply.

I narrowed it down to make a conclusion about a specific aspect of cultural difference.
A specific topic scope for a conclusion about a specific cultural aspect.