Thread: Honor killing and the difference in cultures.

Originally Posted by jmueller8

OK Jimmy; NPR is like that expired bran cereal that nobody wants! LOL!

I've got to agree with Jockeys on this one! They will never rest until we "the world" are either all converted or killed. The only way to break this ideology is to eradicate it.

I hear you. The same could have been said for "winning" in Viet Nam. We didn't "kill them all" then and we won't do it now. After 58,000 + American dead and many more wounded we now can buy cargo shorts and what have you made in Vietnam in our local Target store.

The "war on terror" would have been better pursued if we would have done as the British did with the IRA. Treat the terrorists as the criminals that they are and pursue them as individuals instead of invading these countries and setting off a guerrilla war within them. Sad to say when we finally pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan in however many years it will be much the same waste as our previous fiasco in the Nam.

I don't even want to comment on this.

Originally Posted by sparq

I will be called names for this. Let me ask another question that is related to yours: how do we retain our democracies despite the influx of people who have a mindset such as this? (both North America and Europe)

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

That is a conundrum that I don't know the answer to. People have been asking that question in relation to immigration for a long time. In 1908 when my grandfather came to the USA from Russia there was a lot of discrimination against eastern Europeans, Italians, Irish ........ "foreigners" in general who were not WASPs. Cultural assimilation was encouraged, even demanded and it gradually occurred. We all became "Americans"in our perception of ourselves and our cultural beliefs. The radical Islamic fundamentalists that we are concerned with appear to be a minority within Islam as a whole. At least I hope so. There are already a fair amount of muslims from around the world in the USA and in Europe and most of them seem to be good hard working people who only want to live and let live. That is my perception anyhow. Whether they will assimilate as previous immigrants have remains to be seen.

This is the true heart of the problem, immigrants no longer wish nor need to become part of the country that they are immigrating into...

My mother though born in the US went back to Greece as a baby because her mother died here, so her father packed up his two daughters and returned to Greece to re-marry, they returned to the US 8 years later, when my mother was 10 years old, she had her early childhood in Greece....
Upon their arrival back in the US her father laid down the law... They were raised "American" speaking and acting Greek was not to be tolerated, nor encourgaed... His statement to them was simple "We live here now, you will learn the language, and you will study the history and culture" This is what has changed.....

The attitude now has become so warped that the new waves of immigrants actually believe that their new country somehow needs to adapt to suit them instead of the other way around....
We actually see this with the huge influx of people moving to Nth Idaho from the coast, both California and Washington transplants have the same attitude when they move up here with their continual statements of "We used to do it like this where I am from"


The thing is if where you came from (insert place) is so much better than where you moved to (insert place) that you want to change it, why did you move in the first place????

Steps down off the soap box

I agree with what has been said, although I don't think the Viet Nam comparison is entirely useful. Different motivations, different circumstances, religion, Israel, cold war, oil, etc.

To add to what has been said about immigration and blending in - not only does their not "melting" into the pot fracture our society, it keeps them from achieving the "American Dream". That dream involves adopting certain attitudes and values. If you don't live by those values, you're not gonna make it here. Then they act surprised and blame everyone else when they don't succeed.

EDIT: This doesn't mean they have to give up their heritage or deny their culture, but they do have to embrace basic American values. Not just live according to the letter of the law.

Jordan

Originally Posted by jnich67

This doesn't mean they have to give up their heritage or deny their culture, but they do have to embrace basic American values. Not just live according to the letter of the law.

Actually the only enforceable thing is the letter of the law, the rest basically is an individual choice. As Glen noted - his grandfather set the rules for his children, it's not the society that did it.
It's a free country and as long as it remains so people can make their free choices and live with the consequences. The smart ones would make smart choices, the dumb ones will make dumb choices. I don't see any problem with this, and I don't see how the problems that have been noted can be solved in a way that preserves the same values that the solution is supposed to preserve.

Originally Posted by gugi

Actually the only enforceable thing is the letter of the law, the rest basically is an individual choice. As Glen noted - his grandfather set the rules for his children, it's not the society that did it.
It's a free country and as long as it remains so people can make their free choices and live with the consequences. The smart ones would make smart choices, the dumb ones will make dumb choices. I don't see any problem with this, and I don't see how the problems that have been noted can be solved in a way that preserves the same values that the solution is supposed to preserve.

What you are saying is correct. But it seems, these days, that entire communities are not making the "smart" decision. Then, certain bleeding hearts blame society as a whole for their failures instead of the individual. I don't know the solution either, except that we have to tell the truth about it. Even if that hurts some people's feelings.

Jordan

Originally Posted by gssixgun

This is the true heart of the problem, immigrants no longer wish nor need to become part of the country that they are immigrating into...

The attitude now has become so warped that the new waves of immigrants actually believe that their new country somehow needs to adapt to suit them instead of the other way around....
We actually see this with the huge influx of people moving to Nth Idaho from the coast, both California and Washington transplants have the same attitude when they move up here with their continual statements of "We used to do it like this where I am from"

Steps down off the soap box

Question - Was this not behavior for all immigrant communities in the past?
German communities in Milwaukee
Italian communities in New York
Irish communities in Boston
Japanese communities in San Fransisco and Seattle
Chinese communities on the west coast
Jewish communities in New York
Little Havana in Miami

The creation of these communities are good examples of immigrants in the past who wanted preserve some of the cultural identity and have a support system to help themselves in a new country. Is it not?

Frankly I believe it was.

And similar arguments were made then as they are now that the new wave of immigrants do not want to assimilate.

Fast forward to today and "generations" later these immigrants (you, I, many others have assimilated into American culture. These communities actually contributed to American Culture and are now proudly associated with American Culture. It was the fairness , equality and opportunity provided by American society that allowed this to happen.

I have full reason to believe that America will continue its great tradition of fairness, equality and opportunity and the same will happen with the newer immigrants..

Originally Posted by Amyn

Question - Was this not behavior for all immigrant communities in the past?
German communities in Milwaukee
Italian communities in New York
Irish communities in Boston
Japanese communities in San Fransisco and Seattle
Chinese communities on the west coast
Jewish communities in New York
Little Havana in Miami

The creation of these communities are good examples of immigrants in the past who wanted preserve some of the cultural identity and have a support system to help themselves in a new country. Is it not?

Frankly I believe it was.

And similar arguments were made then as they are now that the new wave of immigrants do not want to assimilate.

Fast forward to today and "generations" later these immigrants (you, I, many others have assimilated into American culture. These communities actually contributed to American Culture and are now proudly associated with American Culture. It was the fairness , equality and opportunity provided by American society that allowed this to happen.

I have full reason to believe that America will continue its great tradition of fairness, equality and opportunity and the same will happen with the newer immigrants..

But the difference today seems to be that some here want to "enable" immigrants and allow them to stay separate - teaching school in languages other than English, for example. I don't think they did that at the turn of the last century.

The groups of the past also embraced the values I mentioned earlier. They didn't dance in the streets when their new country was attacked. They were proud to be American, not an XXXXXX just living in the US.

Jordan

Originally Posted by jnich67

But the difference today seems to be that some here want to "enable" immigrants and allow them to stay separate - teaching school in languages other than English, for example. I don't think they did that at the turn of the last century.

The groups of the past also embraced the values I mentioned earlier. They didn't dance in the streets when their new country was attacked. They were proud to be American, not an XXXXXX just living in the US.

Jordan

There were German groups in the United States that were loyal to Hitler during WWII. This is very well documented.

As for the language question which is really complicated and is a whole different thread. Immigrants from the past had the same struggles.

"Enablers" = "Disablers" across time. There are just an many enablers today as there are disablers.

I believe that anyone who wants to move forward in "world society" not just "american society" must learn English. English is the language of business and science. Although I honestly I think it is a great asset to be bilingual. Most of the world other countries are a bilingual.

Originally Posted by Amyn

Question - Was this not behavior for all immigrant communities in the past?
German communities in Milwaukee
Italian communities in New York
Irish communities in Boston
Japanese communities in San Fransisco and Seattle
Chinese communities on the west coast
Jewish communities in New York
Little Havana in Miami

The creation of these communities are good examples of immigrants in the past who wanted preserve some of the cultural identity and have a support system to help themselves in a new country. Is it not?

Frankly I believe it was.

And similar arguments were made then as they are now that the new wave of immigrants do not want to assimilate.

Fast forward to today and "generations" later these immigrants (you, I, many others have assimilated into American culture. These communities actually contributed to American Culture and are now proudly associated with American Culture. It was the fairness , equality and opportunity provided by American society that allowed this to happen.

I have full reason to believe that America will continue its great tradition of fairness, equality and opportunity and the same will happen with the newer immigrants..

Keep in mind that I am not in anyway saying this is an American problem only, this is happening everywhere, and it is not the holding on to ones culture, that is a problem , never has been....
It is the new expectation, that the new country, should change to suit the incoming immigrant, that the new country somehow should be beholding to the new immigrant, that has become the problem, read the link that Rajagra posted, and see that in England they have set up a separate legal system ... This is the problem.....

Here in the US just look at the language issues, I personally do not believe that I should have to pay taxes, to print DL manuals in multiple languages, or school books, or hire multi-lingual teachers, cops, government workers, or any other worker for that matter at a higher pay rate, just to be able to communicate with a new influx of immigrants, who are not willing to learn the language of the country they have "CHOSEN" to move to....

This I DO have a problem with here in the US, I am sure other countries are having the same problems that we are having too....

Now that you want to celebrate the Chinese New Year, Ramadan, Cinco d Mayo or any other thing to preserve your culture, and to make the host counrty a little more worldly???? I DO NOT have a problem with... at your cost!!!!!!

Stupid soapbox !!!