Muscle Car Comeback

**slipangle** · 06-29-2009, 07:28 PM

bbshriver, I wish you had read beyond the first line of the post you quoted.

I'll say it again. Packaging, weight, diminishing returns.

Big engines are great for land yachts like a Bentley or for large trucks.

I have no interest in either.

I guess what it comes down to is intended use and preference. I prefer lighter, more nimble vehicles (S30 Z, NA Miata, EF Civic Hatch).

I'm also all about the end result. Stick a Bentley powerplant in any of those, and you have a worthless piece of garbage. So, when we're considering more than brute hp- actual RESULTS, your big motor scenario just doesn't work.

It kinda bums me out that you didn't read further. If you'd made it to the bottom of my post, you'd realize that there'll be a boosted LSX motor in the engine bay of my S30 Zcar. 5.3+ L of displacement, AND boost on top in an all-aluminum package.....

**slipangle** · 06-29-2009, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

my next car is going to be a 240Z or 280Z with a mild L67 GM six I want to try and attach it to a Camaro 5 speed

Don't bother. The car is great, just forget the motor.

Unless you're some sort of masochist or someone who wants to do it "just because I could", the amount of effort and trailblazing you'd have to do would not be worth it.

I would recommend looking into a later turbo motor (L28et) for an S30Z. They literally bolt right in, wiring is easy, and with an intercooler installed (weren't available factory) you can make 250RWHP no sweat.

Guys are making 400+ RWHP/TQ out of motors with stock internals and no porting in the head or intake manifolds.

If you want it "tuneable", try Megasquirt. Also, the early Zcars (240's) were around 2300 LBS. That can go down easily.

If you do plan on buying an early one, keep in mind that they are rusty rattletraps that sound like the inside of a tin can. No power anything. No AC.

But, that's exactly why I love mine.

Check out Zcar.com and hybridz.org

**gratewhitehuntr** · 06-30-2009, 12:46 AM

I'm a zcar.com member

I had a 78 280 2+2
78 280
74 240

I like the larger car a little better (280)
the 240 was just TOO go-cart-ish

I already did a 302/c4 280Z

**bbshriver** · 06-30-2009, 02:31 AM

I did read your entire post, and I certainly understand your comment on diminishing returns, weight and packaging.
I enjoy nice nimble cars as much as the next guy (my "fun" car is a 1973 Porsche 911 Targa).

My commentary was simply related to the fact that a bigger engine will ALWAYS be a bigger engine, and principally on the first part I stated that you can always boost a bigger engine, where there are definite limits to how much bigger you can make a small boosted engine. Making a statement like boost is a replacement for displacement implies that a small engine with lots of boost is a suitable powerplant for anything. Remember, Horsepower sells cars, but torque moves them.

Just for reference tossing around a Bentley Arnage is stupid fun, it's not the lumbering barge you might expect. I can take a back road in that faster than in the Porsche.

Jeremy Clarckson agrees
YouTube - Top Gear - Bentley Arnage T - BBC

**Bruno** · 06-30-2009, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by bbshriver

I enjoy nice nimble cars as much as the next guy (my "fun" car is a 1973 Porsche 911 Targa).

MY fun car is a 6 year old citroen Xsara with 2 kiddie seats in the back

But at least it has a 2L 110 hp engine.

Originally Posted by bbshriver

Jeremy Clarckson agrees

I absolutely love top gear. Jeremy clarckson is a genius. Why? because they have made a car show popular with people who typically don't even care about cars. Even my wife like watching top gear.

**bbshriver** · 06-30-2009, 11:46 AM

Clarkson is "da man"! And also happens to have my dream job. And I agree with how they make the show entertaining for everyone. I love it because I'm a car guy, and even though I frequently disagree with stuff the top gear crew says (you'll hardly ever hear a good comment about an American car, and their complaints are rarely valid), I can tell they're car guys and "get it".

My sister-in-law likes it because it's entertaining, and she has no interest in cars whatsoever.

**gregs656** · 06-30-2009, 11:50 AM

The only issue that I have with top gear is that it was getting more and more contrived.

I think they're starting to move back to where they were a few series back though, when it was just hillarious.

the 10k super car challenge is still one of my favorite bits of television ever. That was superb.

**slipangle** · 07-02-2009, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by pio

Yup..
thats what the import crowd like to think...

try to put a 300hp 2.0 turbo engine against a v8 with 300 hp to see what happens...

so NO there is no replacement to displacement...

Bbshriver and I are on the same page on this issue. You and I? Not so much.

WRC cars are an excellent example of what I am talking about. Due to engine restrictions (intake plate) they end up about 300hp. But torque? try 400+. I'd put that motor against many of the domestic V8 offerings due to how much smaller (packaging) and lighter the fours are, in addition to the fact that their numbers are pretty similar.

Point is, it's easy to hate and yell "ricer" when the truth is that power and delivery in a turbo 4 have come to the point where they are a viable option in higher-end motorsports.

Remember, I'm no V8 hater (gotta love that sound), I just have respect for a well-modified 2 to 3 L motor.

**oldblades** · 07-02-2009, 02:24 PM

The real muscle car please step forward.
If you want to consider it the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger were all pony cars. The Challenger was the last to come along and was built so they could get into Trans-Am racing.

The first muscle car was considered the 1949 Olds Rocket 88 with the first OHV V-8 high compression motor. Its only real contender at the time was the Hudson Hornet.
The next big muscle car was the Chrysler 300-C with a 300 hp V-8 then Rambler topped it with the Rebel in 1957. At that time it was the fastest American Sedan.
The first muscle cars were modles like the Ford Galixie, Thunderbolt.
Pontiac GTO Chevy Chevelle ss Olds 442 Ply Roadrunner Dodge Charger all were sedans.
Now they say a muscle car is a 2dr coupe?
Just my $.02 worth.
Tim

**Quick Orange** · 07-02-2009, 02:30 PM

Oldblades, I realized that after I posted it, but since you can't edit subject lines, I just left it. My mistake

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