Thread: Textspeak, poor grammar and a general grump.

True, but there's quite a difference between making a misstake and simply not caring whether you're doing it right.

Aaaaw Kees, are we really that bad?
I can only remember one case when a member did not pay attention at all so his posts were really difficult to read.

Reading english is actually ok for me. Sometimes I have to guess what a single word means or I have to look it up. Its getting much more difficult though, when someone does not write correctly or uses a type of language that you won't find in books.
Now writing is another thing. I have a spell checker but it doesn't tell me whether I spelt the right or wrong word correctly and its by no means a grammar checker. Hope you can still understand what I'm talking about, LOL

In german I'm terrible with being correct. Its almost not funny anymore.

Originally Posted by Bruno

My pet peeves are

there - their
its - it's
who - whom

But I do have to admit the "who" "whom" thing has always had me confused.

I dated someone a few years ago who said it was a breath of fresh air to get an email from someone who wrote in complete sentences and paragraphs...

As a teacher of English as a Second language, may I just say...

Bruno, you are a beautiful, beautiful person.

Olivia, your English puts many native speakers to shame.

And txtspeak is an evil, demonic force that must be extinguished. It has a place and a time, and that place is on cellphones and the time is when you are too drunk to move your thumbs correctly.

My pet peeve is the ubiquitous apostrophe. I actually wish people would just stop using it, because 90% of the time they're using it WRONG. Apostrophes have almost nothing to do with plurals--so, JUST STOP IT.

Come ON guys, get with the programme. The medium is the message and all that Marshall McLuhan stuff.
Now I'm as passionate as the next guy/gal about punctuation and grammar, but I do also recognise that certain types of media ('hot' media as McLuhan termed in the 60s, yes! THE SIXTIES! so it's hardly new-fangled) will command a specific way of writing or communicating.

Take telegrams STOP They introduced a new pared-down way of writing which was often non-grammatical STOP

So how does txt-spk differ? It doesn't. It's another medium and therefore totally valid as a format. There are accepted conventions and rules with txt-spk like any other format.

I think Dov's daughter #1 has the right idea, even though I myself may dislike it's use in real life -- funner... ugh! But we can't stand in the way of evolving language like some old fogies reminiscing on the days of Chaucerian English. Language changes like everything else in life, and demanding that the world stand still is kind of, well, pointless, isn't it?

And where do we grumpy old men draw the line? Is 'ain't' acceptable in written English? Because my English teacher used to smash down upon our head Vol. 1 of the OECD if we ever wrote it down (obviously, this in the days when it was OK to smack schoolkids about). But I've seen it written and published so often it appears to be perfectly acceptable now.

The fact is, those complaining about the degradation of spelling and grammar are using forms of the same which were anathema to their descendants and ancestors. In other words, our great great great granpappies would look at how the best of us write now and would have given the same level of disdain to our written language as we do to the younger generations using txt-spk or other formats now.

And even our German compadres, ESPECIALLY our German compadres, shouldl understand. After all, didn't the written form of German change radically, e.g. abandoning eszett and using double-s instead, and isn't the use of umlauts gradually being phased out? Certainly the written Chinese language was modernised with it characters.

One thing that doesn't change... old geysers moaning about the state of language today! Kind of like

Oliva,
My fiance is originally from taiwan. A lot of slang and idioms do not translate. I find this especially when visiting family.

When i was in chinatown last time i was looking at a book that was nothing but american idioms and slang translated. I had never heard of many of them and i'm a native.

Originally Posted by 0livia

Aaaaw Kees, are we really that bad?
I can only remember one case when a member did not pay attention at all so his posts were really difficult to read.

Reading english is actually ok for me. Sometimes I have to guess what a single word means or I have to look it up. Its getting much more difficult though, when someone does not write correctly or uses a type of language that you won't find in books.
Now writing is another thing. I have a spell checker but it doesn't tell me whether I spelt the right or wrong word correctly and its by no means a grammar checker. Hope you can still understand what I'm talking about, LOL

In german I'm terrible with being correct. Its almost not funny anymore.

Mmmm...I smell LINGUISTICS!!!!

Originally Posted by majurey

Come ON guys, get with the programme. The medium is the message and all that Marshall McLuhan stuff.
Now I'm as passionate as the next guy/gal about punctuation and grammar, but I do also recognise that certain types of media ('hot' media as McLuhan termed in the 60s, yes! THE SIXTIES! so it's hardly new-fangled) will command a specific way of writing or communicating.

Take telegrams STOP They introduced a new pared-down way of writing which was often non-grammatical STOP

So how does txt-spk differ? It doesn't. It's another medium and therefore totally valid as a format. There are accepted conventions and rules with txt-spk like any other format.

Time and a place is, I believe, the argument. It is drawing a real communicative line between people--many have no perception that txtspeak is not, in fact, acceptable in things like business communication.

If you started using telegram language in your letters, you'd be considered a real ass, wouldn't you? Same principle. The constraints of a system dictate the language, and a system without those constraints should not have the same language.

Originally Posted by majurey

I think Dov's daughter #1 has the right idea, even though I myself may dislike it's use in real life -- funner... ugh! But we can't stand in the way of evolving language like some old fogies reminiscing on the days of Chaucerian English. Language changes like everything else in life, and demanding that the world stand still is kind of, well, pointless, isn't it?

And where do we grumpy old men draw the line? Is 'ain't' acceptable in written English? Because my English teacher used to smash down upon our head Vol. 1 of the OECD if we ever wrote it down (obviously, this in the days when it was OK to smack schoolkids about). But I've seen it written and published so often it appears to be perfectly acceptable now.

It was always acceptable. It always will be. Dovo's daughter #1 is, in fact, a child and doing what children do--using their knowledge of comparatives to extrapolate in new directions. This is common...for children. It dies away, though, in most people who actuall give a crap about communication. Which is, in the end, what language is.

I can be talk many way and you get me donchaknow...but that doesn't make it acceptable. It is, in fact, immensely arrogant to assume that others will understand you when you refuse (NOT are incapable--REFUSE) to use commonly accepted language.

Originally Posted by majurey

The fact is, those complaining about the degradation of spelling and grammar are using forms of the same which were anathema to their descendants and ancestors. In other words, our great great great granpappies would look at how the best of us write now and would have given the same level of disdain to our written language as we do to the younger generations using txt-spk or other formats now.

And even our German compadres, ESPECIALLY our German compadres, shouldl understand. After all, didn't the written form of German change radically, e.g. abandoning eszett and using double-s instead, and isn't the use of umlauts gradually being phased out? Certainly the written Chinese language was modernised with it characters.

Actually, no. Language doesn't change nearly as much as you think, nor in the ways you think. Ain't is, in fact, ANCIENT in terms of English. It was designated bad English by prescriptive grammarians because they wanted English to be Latin...so things like double negatives (which are and always have been and always will be used by speakers of English). Words like "Aks" instead of "ask" are actually attested in Old English, meaning that they predate any modern grammar rules.

The common rules of English are actually established by usage, rather than any centralized authority. We have an enormously productive language, but that does not mean that every form that comes up is instantly acceptable--the baseline for that is comprehensibility.

And as for German, those reforms are standardizations and NO, they aren't eliminating the esszet, nor are they eliminating the umlaut. The usage has been reduced and refined, but by no means eliminated.

You do realize that Germany has a state-agency (as does France, Iceland, and a great many other nations) that decide what IS and ISN'T English, and they publish a definitive prescriptive guide that is used as a basis for all national education, and that English does NOT have that?

Originally Posted by majurey

One thing that doesn't change... old geysers moaning about the state of language today! Kind of like

It's geezers. Geysers spew hot water out of the ground. Geezers spew hot BS out of their mouths.

I am a member of another online community of people that is linked through a group we all belong to out here in the real world.
There are folks in there without a high school diploma, there are a number of doctors, politicians, lawyers, major business leaders, hard core right ring whackos and lefty lefto hippy sunchildren wearing flowers in the hair, guys with cigar collections worth more than my house, and guys (and gals) living in houses worth less than my suit.

My point??? Out of this beautiful, diverse group...there is one....ONE...person who writes all of his messages in this idiot-speak.
No, our spelling isn't perfect, nor do we demand it to be. Our grammar is far from uniform or always correct, no matter the level of education.

But 2 B forced to C posts like this....aaaarrrgghhhh!!
Come on! We are a community of adults. Showing this lack of respect for yourself and the post shows that same lack of respect for your audience.

Txt speak has a place....on a cell phone (in a TXT!) or perhaps twitter...

And even our German compadres, ESPECIALLY our German compadres, shouldl understand. After all, didn't the written form of German change radically, e.g. abandoning eszett and using double-s instead, and isn't the use of umlauts gradually being phased out? Certainly the written Chinese language was modernised with it characters.

LOL yes, our famous "Rechtschreibreform"! Well that is actually an adaption to the dumbest cause they simply cannot write. I refuse to follow that and stick with my "ß"!
For luck I'm not getting grades for my posts, hehehe

Several of these points strike home. One the most common errors I seem to find everywhere lately is using "to" where it should be "too." (And yes, in America, I believe the comma is correctly inside the quote. In England, it should be outside which makes much more sense to me but hey, I don't live there. Someone please put me in my place if I'm wrong.) As for spelling and grammar, I agree it's a disgrace that schools don't pay more attention to it. I read reports by professional people all the time who can't spell. Excuse me? PhDs who can't spell? Yes, it's true that in colonial times, words were spelled according to sound and sometimes spelled differently even by the same person in the same paragraph. Read some of the writings by our founding fathers, even men as educated as Adams and Jefferson. This was acceptable then but it's pity we haven't come farther in 200 years. Speaking of the founding fathers, history is in the same boat as spelling and grammar in the schools. I don't think my children (all adults now) could tell you what year the Declatation of Independence was signed. Well, I'll get off my high horse now and end with a lighter note. If you want to read a delightful and very creative example of how you can play with the English language, read John Lennon's, "In His Own Write." And by the way, while I feel my spelling to be pretty good, I must admit my typing is less than perfect.