Debunking Dangerously Deceitful Dogma

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08-14-2009, 11:12 PM
Pete_S

So far this thread really hasn't devolved, in my opinion. Its gotten a little heated, but not too bad.

Now as far as the different criticisms go, no one has been disrespectful of the various religions and their beliefs, nor I think, towards anyone else in the thread. However, people (including myself) have been derisive towards Creationism, which is not a religious belief, but a belief spawned from religion, and, as I have just found out, an idea that has been rejected by pretty much all religious branches, to the extent that now the Vatican is claiming that ideas of evolution can be traced to early church scholars (I'm pleased that they've accepted evolution, so I wont point out some problems with this).

As I stated earlier, Creationism and Evolution are not two competing systems of belief. Evolution is a robust scientific theory that is well proven by a great deal of evidence. It is not a "matter of belief" any more then other well proven scientific theories, such as the Copernican model of the solar system, plate tectonics, or any of a variety of other theories. It isn't even a fringe theory, such as m-theory that, while very interesting, cannot be currently proven (though it makes a great deal of sense "fitting into things") Creationism, on the other hand, is an idea, taken from an interpretation of the bible with no proof to support it. While people are free to believe in it, I see no reason that this belief would be afforded the same protections of a persons religious belief, especially since Creationism has now been rejected by most major churches. The bible also states that Pi is 3 and the earth is the center of the universe, but if someone were to argue that either of these were true I doubt people would state that it was a matter of belief, but simply think that the person arguing it was just wrong.

As far as this thread convincing anyone, it depends on the person. If they're willing to examine evidence and question certain beliefs then it might. At the very least, they might learn a bit more about science, and that's never a bad thing.
08-15-2009, 03:42 AM
heliguy

Education education education
08-15-2009, 03:55 AM
ENUF2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete_S

Especially since Creationism has now been rejected by most major churches. The bible also states that Pi is 3 and the earth is the center of the universe, but if someone were to argue that either of these were true I doubt people would state that it was a matter of belief, but simply think that the person arguing it was just wrong.

Contrary to popular belief Creationism has not been rejected by most major churches. By the catholic Church yes but not by either the major or independent Protestant Denominations.

The following definition of evolution was the 1995 official Position Statement of the American National Association of Biology Teachers and is consistent with what other major science organizations mean by evolution: "The diversity of life on earth is the outcome of evolution: an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable and natural process of temporal descent with genetic modification that is affected by natural selection, chance, historical contingencies and changing environments."

Unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable is not compatible with the Creeds of Christendom in any way shape or form. "Theistic evolution" is a watering down of doctrine thus falsifying true faith in the Triune God.

The bible states that Pi is 3 is a misconception. The verse in question is --And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. 1 Kings 7:23 (KJV)

Read in context this is to point to its immense size and besides that there was no standard of measure back then. A cubit or a hands breath was an approximation pending on the size of the person doing the measuring. Have you ever estimated the length of something by seeing how long it was compared to your outstretched arms? If so, then you have used "measurements" similar to those that ancient civilizations used.

The bible states the earth is the center of the universe is also a misconception. No where in Scripture is there any statement remotely fitting this description. The Book of Genesis states that our planet was created three days before the sun, moon, and stars. The purposes of the stars relate directly to the earth: to provide a calendar system (Gen. 1:14) and to declare God's glory to men (Ps. 19:1). It was once thought that the earth was physically located at the exact center of the universe, and furthermore that it did not move. We still use some of that type of language today (sun rise,sun set) Scripture does not require it and observation clearly shows the earth's movement.

There is many misconceptions about the Bible and I will address them when they show up here. Since I am one of the ignorant, unthinking, unquestioning few here I must at the least defend my faith and the word from which it flows.
08-15-2009, 04:37 AM
xman

ENUF, I'm sorry I mentioned your name in the initial post, I shouldn't have. I'll have a mod remove it.

Alex, re. post #65, You misunderstand and misinterpret me completely, but I know you, you're a great guy.

I'm sorry if anyone finds these facts uncomfortable.

Just to be clear ... AGAIN ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by xman

Not you ... You're not a liar, but the links sited are filled with deceptions ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by xman

... Some are following with genuine interest and honest wonder and it is for their benefit that I supply the pathway in the three video series ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by xman

... If there are any honest questions regarding the content of a specific video those can be answered here, but don't bother asking how we know it to be true ...

To sum up, another video. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqznU...layer_embedded
08-15-2009, 12:15 PM
jcd

Quote:

Originally Posted by ENUF2

"Theistic evolution" is a watering down of doctrine thus falsifying true faith in the Triune God.

Hear hear!

I've always thought that understanding and accepting evolution should lead to atheism. I know there are plenty of "Theistic Evolutionists" - I can only wonder at the doublethink going on in their heads.
08-15-2009, 12:32 PM
VeeDubb65

I don't consider myself a "theistic evolutionist" yet I firmly belive in God and most Christian teachings, while also believing in the big bang and evolution.

The way I reconcile the two is quite simple.

It is the height of arrogance for anyone to say that they are 100% certain about the ancient past. Even Steven Hawking, who is far more inteligent and clever than anyone involved in this discussion, including me, does not claim absolute certainty.

Since we cannot claim certainty, we must take the things which are of the most value. The biblical story of creation can provide greater understanding of our relationship with God, while the theories of evolution and the big bang can provide greater understanding of the physical working of the universe we live in.

Both have value, and I sincerely pitty anyone who is so blinded by arrogance that they cannot see the value in both.
08-15-2009, 01:45 PM
jcd

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

I don't consider myself a "theistic evolutionist" yet I firmly belive in God and most Christian teachings, while also believing in the big bang and evolution.

You must have a very interesting definition for "theistic evolutionist". I'd like to know it please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

It is the height of arrogance for anyone to say that they are 100% certain about the ancient past. Even Steven Hawking, who is far more inteligent and clever than anyone involved in this discussion, including me, does not claim absolute certainty.

Yes. Being absolutely certain is a religious trait.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeeDubb65

Since we cannot claim certainty, we must take the things which are of the most value. The biblical story of creation can provide greater understanding of our relationship with God, while the theories of evolution and the big bang can provide greater understanding of the physical working of the universe we live in.

Both have value, and I sincerely pitty anyone who is so blinded by arrogance that they cannot see the value in both.

I just had a quick look at creation myths, I love the Maori one:

The Māori creation myth tells how heaven and earth were once joined as Ranginui, the Sky Father and Papatuanuku, the Earth Mother, lay together in a tight embrace. They had many children who lived in the darkness between them. The children wished to live in the light and so separated their unwilling parents. Ranginui and Papatuanuku continue to grieve for each other to this day. Rangi's tears fall as rain towards Papatuanuku to show how much he loves her. When mist rises from the forests, these are Papa's sighs as the warmth of her body yearns for him and continues to nurture mankind.

Tell me, what is the "value" of this, apart from being a fantastic and beautiful story? Whatever your answer to that is, is that enough to make the story true?

Finally, I won't go into mentioning those I pity. That would be rude.
08-15-2009, 01:59 PM
Tony Miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by xman

I have not accused any believer of ignorance or stupidity, only the creationist who seeks to degrade our clear understanding of reality for the sake of their own praise, the illogical support of some holy text.

You said earlier.."Dogma depends on an ignorant, unthinking, unquestioning herd."

Most believers faithfully accept the dogma of their denomination. In many groups not believing dogma, means not believing at all. It does not have to be logical, that is why it is called Faith.

I would like to think I am a fairly educated, thinking, questioning person. I was always spiritual, not always a convinced believer, I entertained evolution as well as creationism in my past. Once I was called I had no need to question any longer. The words of Genesis are the foundation my faith is based on. I have no need to seek further, call that ignorance if you wish, I call it faith.

Tony
08-15-2009, 02:18 PM
LX_Emergency

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcd

You must have a very interesting definition for "theistic evolutionist". I'd like to know it please.

Simple. A lot of the theories put forward by most scientist can be correct, however this does not explain the how it started. What set things into motion etc. The explanation for taht is theistic evolution.

Quote:

Yes. Being absolutely certain is a religious trait.

Nope. I see here a lot of people who are absolutely certain that they're right.

Quote:

I just had a quick look at creation myths, I love the Maori one:

The Māori creation myth tells how heaven and earth were once joined as Ranginui, the Sky Father and Papatuanuku, the Earth Mother, lay together in a tight embrace. They had many children who lived in the darkness between them. The children wished to live in the light and so separated their unwilling parents. Ranginui and Papatuanuku continue to grieve for each other to this day. Rangi's tears fall as rain towards Papatuanuku to show how much he loves her. When mist rises from the forests, these are Papa's sighs as the warmth of her body yearns for him and continues to nurture mankind.

Tell me, what is the "value" of this, apart from being a fantastic and beautiful story? Whatever your answer to that is, is that enough to make the story true?

Don't know. I'm not really into Maori mythology, and without going into it further I couldn't say.

Quote:

Finally, I won't go into mentioning those I pity. That would be rude.

You just did and yes it is. There's not call for statements such as this.
08-15-2009, 02:31 PM
Nvphotos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

The words of Genesis are the foundation my faith is based on. I have no need to seek further, call that ignorance if you wish, I call it faith.

Tony

Tony, are you a Christian? If so you should visit the site of Answers in Genesis (sorry the link isn't posted anymore, I had to delete it ). It's nice to meet other Christians!

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