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    Super Shaver xman's Avatar
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    Exclamation Debunking Dangerously Deceitful Dogma

    This thread is started as a growth from a previous thread where we got off topic and began a back and forth debate between radically different world views. Any directive which demands slavish devotion and refuses to allow one to think for oneself is dangerous. It's what lets people be convinced by pulpit pounding preachers to strap bombs to themselves and walk into crowded markets or load their favourite guns and use them on doctors who performs abortions. Such dogma is, by its very definition, damaging to the advancement of human consciousness and forces, as a result of its intellectually destructive nature, a return to the dark ages. Although it's not an apology, I am sorry. I'm sorry for anyone who is caught up in such deceptions. I pity them their life of ignorance. They are the intellectually blinded and mutilated victims of the cruelest kind of deceit, that using you brain, that properly observing the wonders of the natural universe and reporting honestly about it, that thinking alone is wrong, is evil. Shame on their abusers.

    Creationist arguments are filled only with errors, lies and what is commonly referred to as junk science. They are notions put forward by charlatans, con artists and criminals who claim that all notions demand equal consideration when they clearly don't. Any idea which is merely fanciful imagination and wishful thinking, even when it's incorrectly called a theory (equivocating between the proper scientific meaning of the word and the more common colloquial meaning) is not the same suit as a proper scientifically peer reviewed and substantiated scientific theory. It's not even in the same deck. Creationism leads people so far down the rabbit hole and there is such a long journey back out of the fantasy world fraught, no doubt, with the perils of public scorn from pastors and the condemnation of one's peers that even if one is not too hobbled in the mind to follow the path upward they are likely to be unwilling to make the journey.


    Nonetheless, I know that not everyone reading is so hampered. Some are following with genuine interest and honest wonder and it is for their benefit that I supply the pathway in the three video series at the end of this post. There is lots of viewing time there but every question posed whether actually inquisitive or deceitfully rhetorical, all inquiries made to the critical thinkers in that thread about the nature of reality and how we know what we do are encompassed there. Every rebuttal to the magical thinking and false logic is supplied as well. Take your time, but watch them all and all will be answered. All is included and it's easy for everyone. There is no reading necessary, just sit back and soak it in. Any further false challenges can be lead back to the answers supplied therein. If there are any honest questions regarding the content of a specific video those can be answered here, but don't bother asking how we know it to be true any more because it has now been answered. Don't post any links to junk science because it has been completely refuted in the videos posted here. Don't claim that Intelligent Design is a valid concept because it has been effectively refuted in the videos posted here. Don't trouble people with the backward notions put forward by televangelical creationists because it has been completely and effectively refuted in the video series provided and also, you would only be doing the dirty work of the dangerously foolish and the hate monger.

    So, it is with a grateful respect for the dazzling intellects of pothole54, AronRa and Thunderf00t that I offer these drams ...

    Drink Me
    YouTube - 1 -- History of the Universe Made Easy (Part 1)


    YouTube - 1st Foundational Falsehood of Creationism


    YouTube - Why do people laugh at creationists? (part 1)


    X

    [Edit] I had hoped the 'Play All' would work here, but the video series stop after the first 10 minute video so you may find it more helpful to access them through these links instead.

    YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

    YouTube - foundational falsehoods aronra

    YouTube - laugh at creationists

    [Edit2] Edited for greater respectfulness.
Last edited by thebigspendur; 08-15-2009 at 10:40 PM.

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  • #2
    jcd
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    Quote Originally Posted by xman View Post
    pothole54, AronRa and Thunderf00t
    A trinity of sorts? You must be religious deep down. QED.

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    Senior Member Tony Miller's Avatar
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    I think the original problem stemmed from the thread going astray. It simply asked, "who do you pray to". Not whether each choice could be proven as fact, or I'm right and you are wrong. Simply who do you pray to and why.

    Of course as in any religious discussion some one needs to prove there is a God or not, or his God is better, etc......That was not what was asked and the demise of the thread was because of those who needed to prove something.

    Even on forums where religion, Christianity specificly, is the topic the same thing happens. I'm right, your wrong takes over. Why can't our commonalities take over and our differences take a back seat.

    Telling someone they are foolish or have been decieved because they believe in some God is the same as an evangelist telling you that you must believe in that God. One is as wrong as the other.

    I live my life in the manner I believe, if someone admires that and wants to learn more great. I'll be glad to share. Ask and I will tell, don't ask and I'll continue on my own path.

    If you believe science rules, great. Put that info out there, if people want more info they will ask. If not fine, don't tell others they are wrong because they choose otherwise.

    I did not always believe myself, but I admired those who did believe for their convictions. I also admired anyone with any convictions. They still feel strongly in something, science or a higher power.

    If we want to be evangelists, lets work to encourage people to explore for themselves, to decide for themselves, to believe in something whether it is from our realm or anothers, whether it is science or faith.
    They are not wrong just because they choose differently.

    Our (your?) world is too proud. "We" know everything and want every one to think as "we" do. I'm sorry but I don't really have any answers, mostly questions and I question every day. I can never explain my belief to anyone, I just know where I am being lead and it is not by men. I may be completley wrong, there may be nothing after this world. If I am right I followed a good path, if I am wrong, well, I followed a good path too.

    Sorry for the rant but I had feared the prayer thread would turn into just another right and wrong discussion, faith vs. science instead of just something for fun where we could share instead of fight.

    Tony
    Last edited by Tony Miller; 08-08-2009 at 06:08 PM.
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    Super Shaver xman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Miller View Post
    Telling someone they are foolish or have been decieved because they believe in some God is the same as an evangelist telling you that you must believe in that God. One is as wrong as the other.
    Thank-you for your thoughtful post Tony, but that's not quite how it went down there. Inquiries were made as to the veracity of scientific theories and when explanations were given they were ignored or discarded out of hand. That is not the intention of my first post either and if you watch the videos in question you will discover that they do not denounce religion as a whole, but only the charlatans I have referred to. Thanks again for being so respectful. Reading your posts is like a breath of fresh air.
    Last edited by xman; 08-09-2009 at 06:36 AM.

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    Yeah, well my daddy can beat up your daddy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quick Orange View Post
    Yeah, well my daddy can beat up your daddy
    that's funny

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    Senior Member Tony Miller's Avatar
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    Xman,
    My reply was basically to both sides of the battle, science and religion. Not to either of you specifically. Both sides seem to disrespect each other in these discussions. A different side may start it each time but the end result is the same. Both sides insist on being right, whether in this incident, the one before it, or the next one to follow. No one will know who is right till the end, if there is an end.

    FWIW, neither of you guys are on my ignore list

    Tony
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    I just want to point out that if everybody had watched the videos they would have seen that none of them speaks against Christians. Rather, the videos speak out against creationists. If you find yourself in the creationist camp, then , even though X's posts have been slightly more animated than I would have been, I have to agree completely with everything he's said.

    If you find yourself in the "Christian" camp, or let's say, in agreement with recent popes' allowing for science of evolution to "parallel" what Catholics believe, then there should be no rift between any members.

    This goes along with what I've said in some previous posts about what we know versus what could be left to a "God".

    The third video, while humorous, singles out one specific creationist. I don't know enough about what the "Creationists" as a whole believe, but it's wrong. The world isn't flat, carbon dating is reliable, there was no adam and there was no eve, no garden of eden, no flood. We know this because we can prove it.

    I don't have anything against any SRP member, so let me get that out there. I may disagree with you on something, but you believing what you want has no effect on me and I could care less.

    V/R,

    OGIE

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    Little Bear richmondesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Miller View Post
    Xman,
    My reply was basically to both sides of the battle, science and religion. Not to either of you specifically. Both sides seem to disrespect each other in these discussions. A different side may start it each time but the end result is the same. Both sides insist on being right, whether in this incident, the one before it, or the next one to follow. No one will know who is right till the end, if there is an end.

    FWIW, neither of you guys are on my ignore list

    Tony
    The point that you made is the same as what I made in the other thread. Things went down hill quickly from there. I am not the least bit interested in persuading anyone to my side of any issue. I just want people to not call each other dangerous, or stupid, or any offshoot of those things. When people get too personal, they should be called out on it IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Miller View Post
    Xman,
    My reply was basically to both sides of the battle, science and religion. Not to either of you specifically. Both sides seem to disrespect each other in these discussions. A different side may start it each time but the end result is the same. Both sides insist on being right, whether in this incident, the one before it, or the next one to follow. No one will know who is right till the end, if there is an end.

    FWIW, neither of you guys are on my ignore list

    Tony
    Mr. Miller your ecumenical attitude in this matter is as good and well thought out as the craftsmanship of your strops.

    As an atheist I feel and understand the frustration and irritation at the hyper-evangelical stance some, but certainly not all, Christians take. It's easy to get in a combative mode and keep the switch turned on. But at the same time it must be remembered if you wish respect it's a good idea to give it.

    I thought the initial question of whom or what someone prays to was an interesting one, but with a guarded eye, because in my experience the next question isn't one of inquiry but one of my eternal soul and how the particular way he or she prays to Gawd is the one, true way to avoid eternal burning in their particular view of hell.

    The thread turned into another, "yeah... but" sort of discussion.

    I think both sides of the argument would do well to adopt Tony Miller's stance on the topic. And I wish everyone would undo the ignore buttons. Because we all can agree on how to get a darn fine shave.

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