Thread: Debunking Dangerously Deceitful Dogma

Originally Posted by xman

pothole54, AronRa and Thunderf00t

A trinity of sorts? You must be religious deep down. QED.

I think the original problem stemmed from the thread going astray. It simply asked, "who do you pray to". Not whether each choice could be proven as fact, or I'm right and you are wrong. Simply who do you pray to and why.

Of course as in any religious discussion some one needs to prove there is a God or not, or his God is better, etc......That was not what was asked and the demise of the thread was because of those who needed to prove something.

Even on forums where religion, Christianity specificly, is the topic the same thing happens. I'm right, your wrong takes over. Why can't our commonalities take over and our differences take a back seat.

Telling someone they are foolish or have been decieved because they believe in some God is the same as an evangelist telling you that you must believe in that God. One is as wrong as the other.

I live my life in the manner I believe, if someone admires that and wants to learn more great. I'll be glad to share. Ask and I will tell, don't ask and I'll continue on my own path.

If you believe science rules, great. Put that info out there, if people want more info they will ask. If not fine, don't tell others they are wrong because they choose otherwise.

I did not always believe myself, but I admired those who did believe for their convictions. I also admired anyone with any convictions. They still feel strongly in something, science or a higher power.

If we want to be evangelists, lets work to encourage people to explore for themselves, to decide for themselves, to believe in something whether it is from our realm or anothers, whether it is science or faith.
They are not wrong just because they choose differently.

Our (your?) world is too proud. "We" know everything and want every one to think as "we" do. I'm sorry but I don't really have any answers, mostly questions and I question every day. I can never explain my belief to anyone, I just know where I am being lead and it is not by men. I may be completley wrong, there may be nothing after this world. If I am right I followed a good path, if I am wrong, well, I followed a good path too.

Sorry for the rant but I had feared the prayer thread would turn into just another right and wrong discussion, faith vs. science instead of just something for fun where we could share instead of fight.

Tony

Any directive which demands slavish devotion and refuses to allow one to think for oneself is dangerous. It's what lets people be convinced by pulpit pounding preachers to strap bombs to themselves and walk into crowded markets or load their favorite guns and use them on doctors who performs abortions. Such dogma is, by its very definition, damaging to the advancement of human consciousness and forces, as a result of its intellectually destructive nature, a return to the dark ages.

If any one is under this type of rule I feel tremendous sorrow for them. Christianity is not. Let me repeat that is not a fatalist religion but a Lifestyle, a relationship, a surrendered walk where the benefit of others are more important than your own. Have you ever read the Bible? The one I read (not watch) says ......

If anyone thinks he is religious, without controlling his tongue but deceiving his heart, his religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

James 1:26-27 (HCSB)

You wish to think of yourself first it's really difficult to take care of others when your arms wrapped around yourself. So what about the drug addict on the street is that where he is suppose to be? What about the father who is an alcoholic? He's warped up in his own little world besides there is nothing in who I am that needs to help I just need to turn the other way. Survival of the fittest you know.

Like I said I follow Christ you don't have to. I believe I have purpose far beyond the 1 in 6 billion that I am and to fulfill that my wants must be second nature. To see that addict off the drugs and being useful in society brings a joy that self centered self righteous people can never know. To see a 60 year old man break down and cry just because someone cared enough to bring him a bed free of charge NO STRINGS ATTACHED because he has been sleeping on the floor (in America for 6 months) not only gives one a sense of a greater purpose but also gives confidence that you can make a difference in a sick and twisted "all about me world".

Not you ENUF. You're not a liar, but the men you have been duped by are. They have lead you so far down the rabbit hole that there is such a long journey back out of the fantasy world fraught, no doubt, with the perils of public scorn from pastors and the condemnation of one's peers that even if one is not too hobbled in the mind to follow the path upward they are likely to be unwilling to make the journey.

If your path is upward leave me in this pit. I have NOT been duped I have been saved by grace through faith and this not of myself it is a gift from God not by works so in it I have no reason to boast. I said it before I lived on "your" side in which I was the alcoholic, I was the drug addict I was the man in and out of jail. Believe me I know exactly where I stand and why and it's not because anyone of those so called enlightened friends cared to reach out a hand of help. I'm sorry to say at 44 years old I have already seen too many acquaintances die because they refused to see the damage they did to themselves. As for those who leave the Church there is NO public scorn or ridicule (at least in a Church that believes it's purpose is to love, and to heal). You talk about lies You have NO clue about the body of believers I work with or probably the TRUE Christian religion in General. And as for the Links I have put out here they are filled only with errors, lies and what is commonly referred to as junk science. They are notions put forward by charlatans, con artists and criminals who claim that all notions demand equal consideration when they clearly don't. Are you "The Expert" in all matters of science or do you get all your propaganda from utube and PBS. Is your name on any of the rebuttal documents or are you just spouting "DOGMA" like the majority of monkeys (monkey see monkey do). Sorry that was uncalled for. Oh wait, an apology. Again, I know my place and as far as I am concerned I am nothing but an instrument to be used by my Creator for His Purpose. As you can see I will refuse to place a single link on this thread by choice because self centered, self righteous people can not truly look at anything other than what they Believe (have faith in and yes that is correct word usage) and ask could there be something more could there really be a purpose to all of this?

There is no reading necessary, just sit back and soak it in.

This in its self is another problem with modern society. People are too busy just soaking it whatever it is. People use to read, they use to test, they use to be able to form an opinion because they had experienced personally whatever it was and was able to tell right from wrong. As a Matter of fact, in a proper Church setting questions are welcomed not scorned we are encouraged to read not only our Bibles but we our encouraged to engage this world and the people in it because we as Christ followers are to be in this world not of it.

Stay inside your own little world where your purpose is you. Think the big bad Christians are out to destroy everything (which is ridiculous). Think you are not trying to "convert" anyone but just telling them YOUR version of the truth (yes, it's your version because it's about you not others). As for me this is just about where I end because it's not about me it''s about the the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32 (NIV)


Lets put the stake in it.... ENUF2 =

E- Everyone is a sinner
No one has to teach us to be self absorbed. Lying and stealing come naturally for us. The Bible tells us (For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.) Romans 3:23 We need no help to do what's wrong according to God's standard, we must just see it from His point of view not our own.

N-No one deserves to go to heaven
In fact we each are holding a ticket to hell. Knowing the truth that we are sinners the Bible says (that the wages of sin is DEATH) Romans 6:23 a. It also tells us that ( it is appointed for people to die once—and after this, judgment— )Heb 9:27 Without help we have no hope. There's nothing we are capable of on our own that will justify our actions in the eyes of God.

U- Unless we turn from sin and self to the One who is enough-
That one is Jesus. In the Book of John we are told (For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.) John 3:16 The rest of Romans 6:23 says (the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. ) Also in Romans we are told it was God not us who made the way (But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us! ) Romans 5:8 .

There is only one way to have what we need and it is through -----

F-Faith-
In Ephesians the 2nd. chapter it says ( For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. ) Also in Romans we learn that ( If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.)

The question is yours. Have you accepted the fact that on your own your destination is destruction?
Has there ever been a time that you sincerely asked the Lord Jesus to truly forgive your sin and ask Him to be the Lord and Savior of your life.
If not, the bible also tells us that today is the day of salvation because we do not know what tomorrow may hold. If this interests you PM me and I can either help you or give you a link that can explain Salvation in more detail.

Oh and
2- This is ENUF
to save, to heal, to change lives forever.

Thanks for your clear and informative post ENUF. I think there is a misunderstanding going on here though. Sure I'm an Atheist and have no love for religion in general, but I'm not against you because you're a Christian. Please watch the video series I have posted and that should be cleared up. The first series, Made Easy clears up misconceptions held by many about the nature of our universe and our place within it from a scientific perspective. That's valuable. The second series, Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism opens up a line of questioning, the kind that dogmatists are not permitted to consider, but show weaknesses which are easily exploited by con men. The third exposes the con men individually and their deceptions. None of it is intended as an attack on Christians. I know a lot of nice Christians and for all I know you are one of them. They are intended to inform people of the very misconceptions which have made you feel offended without actually understanding where I'm coming from. Really, watching the series will clear a lot of that up.

Originally Posted by ENUF2

to save, to heal, to change lives forever.

I see that we can find some common ground.

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Telling someone they are foolish or have been decieved because they believe in some God is the same as an evangelist telling you that you must believe in that God. One is as wrong as the other.

Thank-you for your thoughtful post Tony, but that's not quite how it went down there. Inquiries were made as to the veracity of scientific theories and when explanations were given they were ignored or discarded out of hand. That is not the intention of my first post either and if you watch the videos in question you will discover that they do not denounce religion as a whole, but only the charlatans I have referred to. Thanks again for being so respectful. Reading your posts is like a breath of fresh air.

Originally Posted by xman

Thank-you for your thoughtful post Tony, but that's not quite how it went down there. Inquiries were made as to the veracity of scientific theories and when explanations were given they were ignored or discarded out of hand. That is not the intention of my first post either and if you watch the videos in question you will discover that they do not denounce religion as a whole, but only the charlatans I have referred to. Thanks again for being so respectful. Reading your posts is like a breath of fresh air.

Isn't questioning the veracity of scientific theories part and parcel of the scientific method itself?

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Isn't questioning the veracity of scientific theories part and parcel of the scientific method itself?

Yes, if one has a counter claim which can be backed up, which fanciful creation mythology cannot be.

Yeah, well my daddy can beat up your daddy

Originally Posted by Quick Orange

Yeah, well my daddy can beat up your daddy

that's funny