Thread: Debunking Dangerously Deceitful Dogma

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

The third video, while humorous, singles out one specific creationist.

I just want to make it clear that each link is intended to point to several videos, so the first in the third set takes aim at a single individual and subsequent videos debunk other such individuals. There's about six hours of viewing all told.

I'd just like to let everyone know that I have placed the entire membership of this forum on my ignore list. It's very quiet now.

The world is full of people who once they believe in something that becomes the ultimate truth to them and that's the end of the story. I not just talking about religion here. Its basically the same with everything. Go to a major University, that bastion of free thought and investigation and no matter the discipline you will find one prevailing view and if some new faculty joins the group and he doesn't subscribe to the view of the rest he is either ridiculed or eventually kicked out.

I think its just a human trait just like the propensity to kill each other.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The world is full of people who once they believe in something that becomes the ultimate truth to them and that's the end of the story. I not just talking about religion here. Its basically the same with everything. Go to a major University, that bastion of free thought and investigation and no matter the discipline you will find one prevailing view and if some new faculty joins the group and he doesn't subscribe to the view of the rest he is either ridiculed or eventually kicked out.

I think its just a human trait just like the propensity to kill each other.

I'm not trying to start an argument at all here. But as a former devout Christian. And to prove devout. I drove the church bus to pick up the children for service and anyone else needing a ride for Sunday and Wednesday night services. I drove it on Thursdays for the kids service. I was active in the church and believed the earth was 6,000 years old and the Bible was the word of god. I thought that was the ultimate truth.
But that didn't hold up to anything scrutiny and I abandoned that for what I consider to be reason.
I know many other Atheists who followed more of less the same path. I think most people who will change, if, educated to something else that makes more sense or proves to be a better philosophy or idea.
As far as the propensity to kill being ingrained in human nature I think Howard Zinn had an interesting theory. Murder through war is the domain of those in leadership. They have to go to great lengths to demonized their object of war in order to get citizens to go out and murder some other group they, otherwise, don't have a beef with. Think about all the propaganda about the japanese to lower their status of humanity so GI's and the nation wouldn't mind killing them in droves. But without that sort of effort it's difficult to get the average human to kill.
Again I'm just trying to throw out an alternate view on what thebigspendur posited.

Just for the record, I've deleted my inflammatory posts with a sincere apology to SRP and to XMan specifically. They weren't representative of who I am, and I apologize for them. That is all.

Originally Posted by joscobo

I'm not trying to start an argument at all here. But as a former devout Christian. And to prove devout. I drove the church bus to pick up the children for service and anyone else needing a ride for Sunday and Wednesday night services. I drove it on Thursdays for the kids service. I was active in the church and believed the earth was 6,000 years old and the Bible was the word of god. I thought that was the ultimate truth.
But that didn't hold up to anything scrutiny and I abandoned that for what I consider to be reason.
I know many other Atheists who followed more of less the same path. I think most people who will change, if, educated to something else that makes more sense or proves to be a better philosophy or idea.
As far as the propensity to kill being ingrained in human nature I think Howard Zinn had an interesting theory. Murder through war is the domain of those in leadership. They have to go to great lengths to demonized their object of war in order to get citizens to go out and murder some other group they, otherwise, don't have a beef with. Think about all the propaganda about the japanese to lower their status of humanity so GI's and the nation wouldn't mind killing them in droves. But without that sort of effort it's difficult to get the average human to kill.
Again I'm just trying to throw out an alternate view on what thebigspendur posited.

The problem is if you look at this country for instance, how many people are murdered each year. Very often for no reason at all other than heat of the moment or just because the murderer doesn't care. I was in law Enforcement so I know. There are plenty of people out there who would kill you in a heart beat if there was something in it for them.

You see my theory is that these people are like the lion's on the prowl on the African savannah. When they are not hungry they walk among the Zebra and they are the best of friends and unlike humans the Zebra sense it. Once the Lions are on a hunt the Zebra sense that too. These violent people are the same. They walk among us and may seem the friendliest people in the world but when the go into kill mode we're just like the Zebra just that we don't sense it and while the Lions do it for food these people do it more for profit and sport.

The fact is as species become more complex they also become more violent. Humans are probably the most violent with Chimps a close second. With other species its usually a food, social thing that has a reason peculiar to that species.

I don't want to sound like Rambo here but he's right it doesn't take much for a human to kill. Experiments have been done to verify that. With the average human as long as they can claim someone in authority says its OK they will do it.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The problem is if you look at this country for instance, how many people are murdered each year. Very often for no reason at all other than heat of the moment or just because the murderer doesn't care. I was in law Enforcement so I know. There are plenty of people out there who would kill you in a heart beat if there was something in it for them.

You see my theory is that these people are like the lion's on the prowl on the African savannah. When they are not hungry they walk among the Zebra and they are the best of friends and unlike humans the Zebra sense it. Once the Lions are on a hunt the Zebra sense that too. These violent people are the same. They walk among us and may seem the friendliest people in the world but when the go into kill mode we're just like the Zebra just that we don't sense it and while the Lions do it for food these people do it more for profit and sport.

The fact is as species become more complex they also become more violent. Humans are probably the most violent with Chimps a close second. With other species its usually a food, social thing that has a reason peculiar to that species.

I don't want to sound like Rambo here but he's right it doesn't take much for a human to kill. Experiments have been done to verify that. With the average human as long as they can claim someone in authority says its OK they will do it.

I was speaking more specifically about war on a large scale. I see your point about it on a smaller scale like murder for a pair of sneakers. You are absolutely correct. A young man was gunned down in front of my condo because he had prevented his murderer from gate crashing a party the previous weekend. I also see in the news all the time about the predatory nature of people. California is by far the worst place for this of any state I've lived.
So I stand corrected on this point and concede to your thought process.
This may start a whole new flame war, I hope not. But as a former member of law enforcement. Do you think the answer to the violence that is ever increasing is to arm oneself or a ban on arms. Or something in between?

Well, this won't be popular but I think every handgun in the country should be banned period. The stats are very clear if you have a handgun and think it will save your life someday its more likely it will be stolen, used against you,used by a child or family member against another family member. handguns are good for one thing and that's killing other people. I have no problem with hunting rifles or single shot hunting pistols but just think how many people die so guys can go shoot their handguns at paper targets.

I realize this will never happen because the gun lobby owns congress and people will continue to die. I'm sure guys will disagree with me wholeheartedly and I know we have a large contingent of gun enthusiasts and I'm not going to get into an argument with them but that's just how I see it. I've seen too many aftermaths of gun useage.

Any directive which demands slavish devotion and refuses to allow one to think for oneself is dangerous. It's what lets people be convinced by pulpit pounding preachers to strap bombs to themselves and walk into crowded markets or load their favorite guns and use them on doctors who performs abortions. Such dogma is, by its very definition, damaging to the advancement of human consciousness and forces, as a result of its intellectually destructive nature, a return to the dark ages.

If any one is under this type of rule I feel tremendous sorrow for them. Christianity is not. Let me repeat that is not a fatalist religion but a Lifestyle, a relationship, a surrendered walk where the benefit of others are more important than your own. Have you ever read the Bible? The one I read (not watch) says ......

If anyone thinks he is religious, without controlling his tongue but deceiving his heart, his religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

James 1:26-27 (HCSB)

You wish to think of yourself first it's really difficult to take care of others when your arms wrapped around yourself. So what about the drug addict on the street is that where he is suppose to be? What about the father who is an alcoholic? He's warped up in his own little world besides there is nothing in who I am that needs to help I just need to turn the other way. Survival of the fittest you know.

Like I said I follow Christ you don't have to. I believe I have purpose far beyond the 1 in 6 billion that I am and to fulfill that my wants must be second nature. To see that addict off the drugs and being useful in society brings a joy that self centered self righteous people can never know. To see a 60 year old man break down and cry just because someone cared enough to bring him a bed free of charge NO STRINGS ATTACHED because he has been sleeping on the floor (in America for 6 months) not only gives one a sense of a greater purpose but also gives confidence that you can make a difference in a sick and twisted "all about me world".

Not you ENUF. You're not a liar, but the men you have been duped by are. They have lead you so far down the rabbit hole that there is such a long journey back out of the fantasy world fraught, no doubt, with the perils of public scorn from pastors and the condemnation of one's peers that even if one is not too hobbled in the mind to follow the path upward they are likely to be unwilling to make the journey.

If your path is upward leave me in this pit. I have NOT been duped I have been saved by grace through faith and this not of myself it is a gift from God not by works so in it I have no reason to boast. I said it before I lived on "your" side in which I was the alcoholic, I was the drug addict I was the man in and out of jail. Believe me I know exactly where I stand and why and it's not because anyone of those so called enlightened friends cared to reach out a hand of help. I'm sorry to say at 44 years old I have already seen too many acquaintances die because they refused to see the damage they did to themselves. As for those who leave the Church there is NO public scorn or ridicule (at least in a Church that believes it's purpose is to love, and to heal). You talk about lies You have NO clue about the body of believers I work with or probably the TRUE Christian religion in General. And as for the Links I have put out here they are filled only with errors, lies and what is commonly referred to as junk science. They are notions put forward by charlatans, con artists and criminals who claim that all notions demand equal consideration when they clearly don't. Are you "The Expert" in all matters of science or do you get all your propaganda from utube and PBS. Is your name on any of the rebuttal documents or are you just spouting "DOGMA" like the majority of monkeys (monkey see monkey do). Sorry that was uncalled for. Oh wait, an apology. Again, I know my place and as far as I am concerned I am nothing but an instrument to be used by my Creator for His Purpose. As you can see I will refuse to place a single link on this thread by choice because self centered, self righteous people can not truly look at anything other than what they Believe (have faith in and yes that is correct word usage) and ask could there be something more could there really be a purpose to all of this?

There is no reading necessary, just sit back and soak it in.

This in its self is another problem with modern society. People are too busy just soaking it whatever it is. People use to read, they use to test, they use to be able to form an opinion because they had experienced personally whatever it was and was able to tell right from wrong. As a Matter of fact, in a proper Church setting questions are welcomed not scorned we are encouraged to read not only our Bibles but we our encouraged to engage this world and the people in it because we as Christ followers are to be in this world not of it.

Stay inside your own little world where your purpose is you. Think the big bad Christians are out to destroy everything (which is ridiculous). Think you are not trying to "convert" anyone but just telling them YOUR version of the truth (yes, it's your version because it's about you not others). As for me this is just about where I end because it's not about me it''s about the the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32 (NIV)


Lets put the stake in it.... ENUF2 =

E- Everyone is a sinner
No one has to teach us to be self absorbed. Lying and stealing come naturally for us. The Bible tells us (For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.) Romans 3:23 We need no help to do what's wrong according to God's standard, we must just see it from His point of view not our own.

N-No one deserves to go to heaven
In fact we each are holding a ticket to hell. Knowing the truth that we are sinners the Bible says (that the wages of sin is DEATH) Romans 6:23 a. It also tells us that ( it is appointed for people to die once—and after this, judgment— )Heb 9:27 Without help we have no hope. There's nothing we are capable of on our own that will justify our actions in the eyes of God.

U- Unless we turn from sin and self to the One who is enough-
That one is Jesus. In the Book of John we are told (For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.) John 3:16 The rest of Romans 6:23 says (the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. ) Also in Romans we are told it was God not us who made the way (But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us! ) Romans 5:8 .

There is only one way to have what we need and it is through -----

F-Faith-
In Ephesians the 2nd. chapter it says ( For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. ) Also in Romans we learn that ( If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.)

The question is yours. Have you accepted the fact that on your own your destination is destruction?
Has there ever been a time that you sincerely asked the Lord Jesus to truly forgive your sin and ask Him to be the Lord and Savior of your life.
If not, the bible also tells us that today is the day of salvation because we do not know what tomorrow may hold. If this interests you PM me and I can either help you or give you a link that can explain Salvation in more detail.

Oh and
2- This is ENUF
to save, to heal, to change lives forever.

Thanks for your clear and informative post ENUF. I think there is a misunderstanding going on here though. Sure I'm an Atheist and have no love for religion in general, but I'm not against you because you're a Christian. Please watch the video series I have posted and that should be cleared up. The first series, Made Easy clears up misconceptions held by many about the nature of our universe and our place within it from a scientific perspective. That's valuable. The second series, Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism opens up a line of questioning, the kind that dogmatists are not permitted to consider, but show weaknesses which are easily exploited by con men. The third exposes the con men individually and their deceptions. None of it is intended as an attack on Christians. I know a lot of nice Christians and for all I know you are one of them. They are intended to inform people of the very misconceptions which have made you feel offended without actually understanding where I'm coming from. Really, watching the series will clear a lot of that up.

Originally Posted by ENUF2

to save, to heal, to change lives forever.

I see that we can find some common ground.