Thread: All things being equal would you vote for a VAT?

Originally Posted by T-Ram

Please understand I am not speaking personally here, but you ( or the individual in question ) did make the decision to bring 2 children into this situation. Correct? Why should the "someone" making $300K be forced to pay a higher percentage of his income to subsidize the decision to have 2 children on a much lower income?

All food for thought!

Because if the majority of the people cannot afford 2 or more children, then either of the following happens:
a) society dies out
b) they have them anyway and society enters a circle of poverty.

It's all good to talk about rights and freedoms, but realistically, being part of a society also carries the obligation to consider the needs of the society in order to make it last.

In this case, if even frugal living cannot enable an average family to raise 2 kids, then that society will flush rapidly and become destabilized.

My real income has declined every year for the last five while my percentage of income paid as tax has stayed the same or risen every year. My property tax alone went up 15% last year in real dollars well the value of said property declined by 25%. I'm already of the opinion that we need a popular uprising in order to effect the changes that will bring about any kind of prosperity. Especially as I know for a fact that out representatives aren't listening to us at all, in fact the nearest congressman actually had an audience of hand picked people bussed in to attend his town hall meeting while denying admittance to many of his constituents so he wouldn't have to deal with their objections to his opinions. Its time to wash out the old, in fire if we must.

No new taxes.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Because if the majority of the people cannot afford 2 or more children, then either of the following happens:
a) society dies out
b) they have them anyway and society enters a circle of poverty.

It is usually not the most affluent families that have most kids.

Originally Posted by Kees

It is usually not the most affluent families that have most kids.

And that is why there is a dispartiy in taxes. if the majority -which are by definition not the wealthy ones- could not have >= 2 kids, then society would get into problems.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

My property tax alone went up 15% last year in real dollars well the value of said property declined by 25%. I'm already of the opinion that we need a popular uprising in order to effect the changes that will bring about any kind of prosperity.

A revolution will not suddenly revive a housing market that has gone down the toilet because of the economic crisis, caused in significant part because of rotten mortgages.

So here is the thing.
- Yes I chose to have a family.
- Yes I choose to live here.
- NO I am not asking for anyone to subsidize my family.

I want the people that make the most to be taxed the most. I want the people that make less to be taxed less. If that means that anyone making less than $200k pay less than what they are paying now in federal taxes/state taxes great. Why you ask? Well those that actually work, those making less than $200k per year keep this country moving and cannot afford to be subsidizing the rich. Everyone talks about subsidies and not wanting to support the other. Well the door swings both ways. I do not want to support the rich. In my opinion, them. They have been getting rich off the sweat off my back for too many years. I want to see some big shot actually do a hard days work.

Lets end the disparity of wages. If a big shot Exec. Officer at some company only makes 25% to 35% more than the highest paid employee in the company and that includes severance packages, golden parachutes, bonuses etc..., I guarantee you that that company will take better care of its people in the form of wages. Wages go up, tax revenue goes up, spending and saving go up, everyone is happy.

T-Ram - I was almost offended by your initial comment. I take hand outs from no one. I earn my way, the hard way. I pay my dues and teach my kids the same. No one in this life gives you anything without them wanting it paid back at a higher interest.

Originally Posted by singlewedge

So here is the thing.
- Yes I chose to have a family.
- Yes I choose to live here.
- NO I am not asking for anyone to subsidize my family.

I want the people that make the most to be taxed the most. I want the people that make less to be taxed less. If that means that anyone making less than $200k pay less than what they are paying now in federal taxes/state taxes great. Why you ask? Well those that actually work, those making less than $200k per year keep this country moving and cannot afford to be subsidizing the rich. Everyone talks about subsidies and not wanting to support the other. Well the door swings both ways. I do not want to support the rich. In my opinion, them. They have been getting rich off the sweat off my back for too many years. I want to see some big shot actually do a hard days work.

Lets end the disparity of wages. If a big shot Exec. Officer at some company only makes 25% to 35% more than the highest paid employee in the company and that includes severance packages, golden parachutes, bonuses etc..., I guarantee you that that company will take better care of its people in the form of wages. Wages go up, tax revenue goes up, spending and saving go up, everyone is happy.

T-Ram - I was almost offended by your initial comment. I take hand outs from no one. I earn my way, the hard way. I pay my dues and teach my kids the same. No one in this life gives you anything without them wanting it paid back at a higher interest.

Singlewedge, I meant no personal offense by any means. I specifically worded my reply to not get personal. If I failed at that, I completely apologize as I thought we were having a gentlemanly discussion where if everyone had the same opinion, there would not be any need to discuss it at all.

Please understand, I am not a big-wig making any where near 6 figures. In fact, I would fall very close to the bottom range of any figures mentioned so far. It's just that IN MY OPINION, if economists would actually create / study a model of a true flat tax, I think we ( the lower-middle, or upper-lower class ) could probably actually end up paying less than we do now. I just used the 10% figure as an example. If you took away all the deductions, credits, exclusions, etc. from the truly wealthy, I believe you would be surprised how many of them would actually pay MORE taxes under a flat tax system, Probably MUCH more than they currently pay.

Like I said, I almost took offense. I have been on boards long enough to know that nuance does not translate into text, no matter how many emoticons you throw at it. I have no experience with you as a poster, but there are others that I would have taken the remark as offensive.

What if, and now what if. We exempt people from tax? Those that would be hit hardest. Assume that a person on January 1 makes $30k and over the next 12 months he socks $300 a month into an interest bearing account instead of $250. So then that person would make $2500 a month minus $300 (Taxes at the end of the year) which is $2200 a month. At the end of the year he will have an extra $600 dollars plus interest in his pocket.

Now like I said all things equal so an even field here. Same person making $300k puts $3k into the same account. He will garner a higher interest rate from the bank based on his balance and will have $6k at the end of the year plus interest.

Even though the tax field is level the little guy still gets screwed. Tax the rich to hell and back.

A VAT may not be good, an adjusted flat tax with exemptions may be better. I know that I would sleep better at night knowing that I had to pay 10% and the other guy had to pay 20% or 30%.

Just simplify the system. Under $30k no tax or 5%, Under $90k 10%, Under $150k 15%, $200k to $250k 20%, over $250k 30%. Not to mention tightening the taxation on companies but that is another rant.

I am not sure of the exact figures but is anyone aware that in the US the top 2% of wage earners pay something like 90 some odd % of the total taxes in this country. How much more do you want them to pay?

Originally Posted by JMS

I am not sure of the exact figures but is anyone aware that in the US the top 2% of wage earners pay something like 90 some odd % of the total taxes in this country. How much more do you want them to pay?

Strike that. The top 2% pay 50 or so % of all taxes and 50% pay 90 some odd % of the total taxes. That means that the bottom 50 % pay 10 % or less of the total taxes.
My question remains the same though. How much more do you wish the rich to pay?
And speaking of fair, are these figures really fair?