Thread: This has been bugging me.

So Sarkozy is trying to ban the Birqua. A mayor in a small town in Italy has banned the "Birquiny", a full coverage bathing suit, at public pools. Denmark is equating the Birqua as support for or in league with the Taliban.

Is the Birqua scary? I live in Portland which is more of a melting pot than any other city I have ever been in. I live right down the street from a Mosque, right across the street from several families from Somalia, who where there version of the Burqua and next door to them are several conservative families of Muslims. Wives are routinely seen in full black Birqua, daughters have their heads covered.

Am I missing something? Is there something wrong here? I believe that in this case that just because it quacks doesn't mean its a duck. Telling a civilization to not wear what they deem appropriate is like asking the Mexicans to not speak Spanish. It is just a stripping away of identity. Maybe there are other problems in Europe that we as Americans are not aware of. If there are please educate me.

Not long ago I saw a documentary on the Apache Indians and Geronimo. They moved them to a reservation in Oklahoma I think it was and sent the children to schools where they were taught English, given haircuts and suits and made to look like the equivalent of Caucasians. They were forbidden to speak their language or practice their religion. I guess the thinking was our culture was so far superior that we were doing them a favor.

The Islamic culture certainly differs from western culture in their religious practices, attitudes to women and what constitutes the pursuit of happiness. Than there are the Islamic fundamentalists and worse the radicals. It is a knee jerk reaction to lump them all together.

From what I've read the Muslims in France for example are ghettoized and while their population is growing by leaps and bounds they have not assimilated into the French culture and have no desire to. I suppose the populace is reacting in whatever way they can to encourage assimilation and than there is the natural antagonism towards the 'other'.

This is one of the dilemmas of a democracy. We want to treat all people equally and allow them freedom of religion and the right to practice their culture. We sort of assume that they will conform to our culture and when they don't this creates friction. If we allow too many of them to immigrate they end up with political power and pretty soon it isn't the same country. So we have to be 'politically correct' but try going to their country and practicing your culture.

Watch the movie called Rabbit Proof Fence.

I work in an Islamic school where many of my students and fellow teachers are Muslim. Some of the girls only wear the hijub (head scarf) because it is part of their school uniform while others also chose to wear a veil also, which gives them a ninja look. As I understand it, the reasoning behind women in Islam having to cover up is just to protect them from lecherous old men. The same reasoning behind any father telling his daughter "You are not going out wearing THAT!"

As a teacher I personally don't like my students wearing a veil (ninja look) because it makes it almost impossible to read the student's face. Most students won't tell you if they understand, or what they are thinking. You have to read their faces. But this isn't a big concern as I only have one student who chooses the ninja look.

However, some of the mothers chose to wear the full black birqua where as most just wear a head scarf. But this in itself is helpful because it lets me know that I have to make sure I behave extra appropriately around the birqua clad mothers.

Actually it is the father's decision on who wears what.

And yes it is a strange form of birth control and terribly empowering to women.

What's that he just said Muslim women empowered? Yes. Think about it. The men find them so beautiful that they do not trust themselves with them. Women must have escorts, must be covered in conservative parts, must be made to look as unattractive as possible. If that is not power I do not know what is. Also remember that the house is the woman's place. She rules that place. The man has no power to tell her what to do in that house, especially the kitchen.

My wife is half Turkish. She went to visit her uncle a few years ago. He was strict, but no conservative. He required her to wear a Hajab whenever she went out, she required that she be escorted by her female cousin or he very large male cousin. She was not allowed out of the house alone.

It is a strange culture to be sure, but remember that we went through the same growing pain. Think about swimsuits. They have gone from full body suits to Brazilian String. Victorian Dress to the dress that we have today. Good lord short skirts just came into fashion some 50 years ago.

It reminds me of the line in a song off Frank Zappa's old "Freak Out" album from '66 or '67, "What is the ugliest part of your body?" Then the refrain goes."I think it's your mind."

So apparently the men from that culture either have a healthy mistrust of women or of themselves. The idea that in some cultures women's genitals are mutilated in infancy to assure that theywill never have sexual pleasure physically doesn't sound very empowering to me.

I just read an article about that. Apparently it is going by the wayside. FGM is usually done when the child is between 5 and 8 by midwives. Now it seems that there is an underground movement to stop this practice. Mothers are using henna body art to tell the midwife that she would not want this done and the midwives are being trained to "fake" the FGM. It is grass roots and picking up steam. Hopefully it will move very far forward. FWIW, FGM is not about eliminating pleasure it is about the husband knowing that his wife is a virgin. If the safety seal is broken, she is not a virgin.

I think that the men are not sure about each other.

Well, look at it historically from the view of the Italian. Think back to how they were really the first western country to have to deal with terrorism. Do you remember the bombings at the at the ROME Airport? This really is one of those issues that for sure there is two sides, but in the long run if you move to a new country then do not become part of the culture then the immigrant loses big time. Look at the most succesful immigrants in the USA, they all embraced the American dream and never looked back. Maybe cause I am first generation American, I feel such a love for my country and appreciation and at the same time can enjoy my ethnicity.
Think of it this way, you go to a party, you dress for the occasion, what is wrong with that?
M

Originally Posted by singlewedge

I just read an article about that. Apparently it is going by the wayside. FGM is usually done when the child is between 5 and 8 by midwives. Now it seems that there is an underground movement to stop this practice. Mothers are using henna body art to tell the midwife that she would not want this done and the midwives are being trained to "fake" the FGM. It is grass roots and picking up steam. Hopefully it will move very far forward. FWIW, FGM is not about eliminating pleasure it is about the husband knowing that his wife is a virgin. If the safety seal is broken, she is not a virgin.

I think that the men are not sure about each other.

So in other words there is an underground women's movement to keep their daughters from being mutilated. It has to be kept secret from the men and I wonder what the men would do, legally, to the women if they found out...........I'm thinking a divorce wouldn't be a part of it.

Yea this is a culture worth allowing to survive.

I'm not even talking about religion here, because this isn't in the Koran anywhere. This is purely a cultural bastardization of morals and should not be tolerated in any part of the world that calls itself free.

Originally Posted by singlewedge

Victorian Dress to the dress that we have today. Good lord short skirts just came into fashion some 50 years ago.

I wouldn't point to Victorian fashion as an example. It was the work of one particular person, a dictator, who was also by many accounts quite insane.

Power is the ability to make decisions on your own behalf if you have to listen to any outside authority you don't have it.