Thread: Presidential speech to our children.

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

honedright --

It doesn't matter to me who said what. Because somebody said something profound in the past makes it decidedly so? If that was the case, we'd still be reading John Locke and Jefferson quotes from kerosene lamps.

For future reference, I will not be impressed with an argument just because somebody who is currently a skeleton agreed with you.

Did you know that Jefferson was a rich, slave owner who had illegitimate children numbering close to the double-digits (some of whom were born from his slaves)?

Actually, I believe the reason we are not reading from kerosene lamps is because of the government set up by those profound individuals, who by the way are great to read about. Some countries, without the benefit of our form of government, Are still using kerosene for lighting, if they're lucky.

An ad hominem attack of Jefferson? Attack his ideas, not the man.

It's neither here nor there. It was just to add a little perspective to the topic.

However, there is some merit to analyzing the character of a man, especially when there is a HUGE misconception about the truth surrounding a person. I'd have a REALLY hard time taking things to heart that an aristocratic slave owner says. After all, since we're talking about the ideas and not the man, isn't pro-slavery an idea?



I'm getting out of this one now. Thanks guys.

Oglethorpe -

It occurs to me that maybe we are arguing a mute point. At first I thought of asking you, if not God, then what basis for establishing inalienable rights. Then I remembered that the Declaration does not say "God" but says "Creator."

"We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights." Do you deny that we are somehow created? And I'm not talking about Mom & Dad.

Originally Posted by honedright

As Mark said, see my edited post. If God is removed from the equation, our rights are toast.

God holds no sway here in this mortal life. Or at least, not in any legal manner.
Your rights are what you can hold on to. No more, no less.
The consitution of the US can be amended, and has been done so many times.

If rights are god given, then why do different folks have different rights?

Originally Posted by honedright

It occurs to me that maybe we are arguing a mute point. At first I thought of asking you, if not God, then what basis for establishing inalienable rights. Then I remembered that the Declaration does not say "God" but says "Creator."

"We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights." Do you deny that we are somehow created? And I'm not talking about Mom & Dad.

We are all created, one way or the other.
That has nothing to do with inalienable rights. There are none. There is only 'agreement'. A majority of people agreeing on rights.

Originally Posted by honedright

Oglethorpe -

It occurs to me that maybe we are arguing a mute point. At first I thought of asking you, if not God, then what basis for establishing inalienable rights. Then I remembered that the Declaration does not say "God" but says "Creator."

"We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights." Do you deny that we are somehow created? And I'm not talking about Mom & Dad.

Obviously I don't deny that we are "created", however, in a present sense we are created by Mom & Dad. If you mean as a people, humanity, then I would say that all signs point to evolution. Before that? Dinosaurs, big crazy fish, and a big explosion in the middle of a void with nothing that can be explained in terms of space, time, or matter outside of it. What was the spark for evolution (out of the primordial soup that was once Earth or maybe an asteroid)? That's where what science can tell us for certain runs out.

I am humble enough to acknowledge that I don't know everything, however I will not blindly put stock into an belief system that supports heaven, hell, apparitions, burning bushes that talk, bread falling from the sky, making girls from ribs, making dudes from dirt, talking snakes, golden gates, resurrections, tongues of fire that make people instantly learn several foreign languages, water into wine, strength in the length of my hair, male and female pairs of animals on giant boats in floods (maybe remotely plausible, but come on), or ascensions. They do make for good movies, though.

EDIT: Additionally, the constitution/declaration personifies "creator" evidently, because of how the "creator" "endows" rights. However, in exactly the same way I don't believe what the Bible says because it was written by men, I do not agree with putting the same unprovable, completely illogical type of prose into the document which is to be the backbone of a free, democratic nation.


DOUBLE EDIT: My sincere apologies go to the OP for taking this thing way out of context. I get a little warmed up in these kind of discussions and it's difficult to avoid tangents.

Yet another thread has run the well beaten path from serious topic to emotional argument about religion.

I wonder if one of the more mathmatically inclined members can come up with the formula to predict how far a given topic can be discussed before the discussion deteriorates into the same predictable pointless opinion shouting competition about religion and/or politics.

Originally Posted by Bruno

God holds no sway here in this mortal life. Or at least, not in any legal manner.
Your rights are what you can hold on to. No more, no less.
The consitution of the US can be amended, and has been done so many times.

If rights are god given, then why do different folks have different rights?

Bruno - are you serious??

Originally Posted by Bruno

We are all created, one way or the other.
That has nothing to do with inalienable rights. There are none. There is only 'agreement'. A majority of people agreeing on rights.

Well, maybe that's true in Belgium.

Originally Posted by honedright

Well, maybe that's true in Belgium.

Here (I think...) it is generally believed that the truth of our certain God-given rights is self-evident