Thread: Constitutionality of Obamacare

Originally Posted by Bruno

The founding fathers put off abolishing slavery. The civil war was fought after the war for independance. And apparently, Lincoln even regretted having to abolish slavery.

So don't act as if the men of that time were all upstanding gentleman who had nothing but the best interest of their fellow men at heart. They were just men. The majority of white men at that time either supported slavery, or didn't care either way.

Is that why so many died in that bloody war Bruno?

You'll have to give me something on your Lincoln statement.

By the way Bruno, are all Europeans so jaded and cynical? Is their any love or hope for whats right or is it a given among Europeans that all is for selfish and self serving purposes?

Originally Posted by JMS

Is that why so many died in that bloody war Bruno?

They sure as heel did not die TO abolish slavery.

Originally Posted by JMS

You'll have to give me something on your Lincoln statement.

I should have done my research myself when I first hear the quote. It is more nuanced than that. However:

Lincoln's Changing Views on Slavery
During the Lincoln-Douglas debate at Charleston on September 18, 1858, Lincoln stated:
I will say then that I am not, nor have I ever been in the favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races . . . There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I... am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race ...

"My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it, if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it."

Originally Posted by JMS

By the way Bruno, are all Europeans so jaded and cynical? Is their any love or hope for whats right or is it a given among Europeans that all is for selfish and self serving purposes?

Lincoln fought to preserve the union. He admitted himself that he did not care about slavery as a main argument. His main concern was the union that was threatening to fall apart.

WW1 did NOT start because of the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria .

By the same token, operation 'Iraqi freedom' did not start because of freedom for the Iraqis, and we did not colonize congo to bring civilization there.

Yes, I am a realist. Unfortunately this also has me labeled as a cynic.
Wars don't start for good reasons (revolutions do, sometimes). The morality gets tacked on for justification.

"Realist" is just a nice sounding word that apparently means that one has no hope or belief that another can move out of the spirit of goodness.

Originally Posted by JMS

"Realist" is just a nice sounding word that apparently means that one has no hope or belief that another can move out of the spirit of goodness.

Sorry, that is not true.
I believe that people sometimes do things out of the spirit of goodness. I have hope and belief.

Goodness, however, is not something that wars start over.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Sorry, that is not true.
I believe that people sometimes do things out of the spirit of goodness. I have hope and belief.

I am glad you think this Bruno but admitting such means that you have to admit that our forefathers may have had good intentions at heart instead of grumbling on about how they are just men and had no such goodness in their hearts.

So now we know that it is possible that the framers of the constitution were moved out of goodness and the best of intentions! Even Bruno admits it

Very, very few people are conciously evil. I am perfectly willing to admit that the framers may have had goodness at heart. However, they also had their share of human failings, like being susceptible to the misconceptions and worldview that was accepted at their time.

People are still like that. Take Obama and Bush. Neither of them thinks of himself as an evil man. Neither is likely to spend his evening in an armback chair with expensive booze, a cat on his lap and going 'Muhwahahahahaaaa' everytime he thinks about his evil master plan. Both are motivated to align society to how they think is good. Both think of themselves that they are right.

So in the end, even if a group of smart people try do do something 'for good', their actions will be colored by their experiences and their world view.

When it comes to war, propaganda and grassroots support are important. It is much easier to sell the general public on something if there is any way in which you can claim the moral high ground.

I'm just glad you can admit when you are wrong Bruno. That you admitted that the framers could be motivated by goodness is a huge step. Maybe we should try to work on your ideas of conservatism next.

Originally Posted by JMS

Is that why so many died in that bloody war Bruno?

You'll have to give me something on your Lincoln statement.

By the way Bruno, are all Europeans so jaded and cynical? Is their any love or hope for whats right or is it a given among Europeans that all is for selfish and self serving purposes?

Lol. I'll agree Europeans are more realist, not jaded. This "love and hope for what's right" has lead to an immense propaganda campaign in the US- euphamised by some as "revisionist history". Basically its where instead of reporting facts- like Lincoln's statements about black/white equality- they report things like the Gettysburg address- which freed slaves in rebel states (and since they were rebel US law did not apply) so effectively it freed no one. But it sounded good and allowed people to ASSUME Lincoln was against slavery. Revisionist history is not wrong, but allows some to make conclusions that may not be true. Thanksgiving is another one. "Look how peaceful and loving our bond with native Americans was! We got together with them to share a meal!" Before brutalizing them, kicking them out of their homes, shipping them off to reservations or marching them out west. etc etc etc