Thread: Help me pick my 9mm

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Yes but what you must remember is when they developed the .45ACP there was nothing known about what a particular caliber or load would actually do. All they knew was bigger round better result. By the time they developed the 45 the battle was over and there were no more 6'5" 350lb Tongans to practice with.

I recall in the early 70s when they really started doing ballistics tests they were dumbfounded with how poorly the 45 did and I remember the studies entitled "the myth of the 45". take that as you will.

No offense to anyone but some guys feel about the 45 like it is a religious thing. I have had a number of 1911s and my first Glock was a 45 but IMO the .40S&W outperforms it in all ways and you have more magazine capacity. It isn't by accident that many law enforcement agencies both state and federal have adopted the 40 as their caliber of choice.

This is slightly off topic and I want to return to the "feel" of pistols. ie Ergonomics. I've never fired or held a Luger myself, but I heard from someone or somewhere that its actually one of the best pistol designs, ever. The key apparently was the that grip was at a very obtuse (wider than ninety deg) angle from the barrel and this made it fit your hand better and follow the line of your arm for more natural shooting. Make a pretend gun with your pointer finger and thumb, and have the other three fingers roughly the size of your preferred grip. No look into your loose fist... the angel between your finger and the creases in your hand is wider than that of most pistols I've held. I dunno. The theory is that this wider angle makes the barrel line up more naturally with your arm/where you would point, so its easier to get on target. Any thoughts?

Here's a comparison pic to show what I mean:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Glock model 27 in .40S&W caliber.

Jimmy's Right. Or get maybe what I got, Glock 23 .40 S&W. I'd advise just shooting the Bad Guy dead the first time you pull the trigger. And remember when the round misses your target, it finds it's way to court-everytime.

Originally Posted by khaos

I've never fired or held a Luger myself, but I heard from someone or somewhere that its actually one of the best pistol designs, ever.

I've owned and operated a few in the past. I think they are one of the most beautiful pieces of machine work I've ever seen. The grip and the natural point and shoot feel is incomparable IME.

OTOH, from a design point of view, the trigger is impossible to tune to the crisp clean break that a target shooter would want. Referring to competitive target shooting. For general combat use I guess it wouldn't be an issue.

The Luger was made by DWM in a limited run of 45 caliber to compete in the US Army trials in .... I think it was 1905 ? The Army was replacing their standard issue revolver with a semi auto and the Luger lost out to the Colt 45 which became the model of 1911.

The Luger's tolerances were so close that it failed in the tests determining if the pistol would hold up in combat conditions where dust, dirt and lack of cleaning would affect the reliable functioning. The loose tolerances of the Colt won the day. Really cool pistols though.

Khaos, that isn't a Colt that is pictured above the Luger (P 08.) It looks like a South American auto to me. The grip angle on a Colt is closer to that of the Luger than the gun in the picture and the area below the barrel, where the Recoil Spring Plug goes (just ahead of te dustcover) is wrong. The cutout on the Slide doesn't move up and forward.

Bigspendur, one way Gun Writers have of selling Gun Magazines, is to write an article about what a dog the Colt .45 is and then plaster the title of the article across the cover. I have read a sackful of drivel that was passed off as a "SHOOTOUT...9mm vs. .45 ACP!" Bottom line is, 'A good big man can whip a good little man.'

Another claim some people try to pass off is "A .38 Hydra-Shok can outperform a .45 Full Metal Jacket!" Apples and oranges. How about a shootout between calibers using nothing but Ball ammunition.

I guess I'll just hang onto my pitiful, ancient design, underpowered .45 Colt.
Anybody remember Jeff Cooper? (Hallowed be his Name.) He kinda liked the .45 ACP too.

Originally Posted by Brother Jeeter

Anybody remember Jeff Cooper? (Hallowed be his Name.) He kinda liked the .45 ACP too.

I remember having a special issue magazine of Jeff Cooper on the 45. There was a photo of him holding one and the caption read,"If you want to win, this is the gun you will carry." That was in the days when Frank Pachmayer was customizing them for big $$. I wanted one of those but never could swing it. IIRC Jeff Cooper had a lot to do with the development of the 10mm.

I seem to remember a term about the .45 acp, and the knockdown power...
Some obscure US Army terminology from the Calvary days "The round must be powerful enough to hobble a horse" has anyone else ever heard of this term?????

I believe it means to incapacitate it/maim it/kill it. To hobble something is to impede it or handicap it.

Bigspendur, one way Gun Writers have of selling Gun Magazines, is to write an article about what a dog the Colt .45 is and then plaster the title of the article across the cover. I have read a sackful of drivel that was passed off as a "SHOOTOUT...9mm vs. .45 ACP!" Bottom line is, 'A good big man can whip a good little man.'

This wasn't based on any gun magazines or writers it was based on the use of ballistic gelatin and the best scientific methods they had at the time. Like I've said the ability of any gun to deliver maximum knockdown power is the transfer of energy when it hits its target and what they found is the 45 as a large and slow moving round had little of it. reports from people previous to these tests were from die heart fans of the 45 and antidotal evidence and old Army tests going back to the early 20th century which weren't very scientific. I'm not saying the 45 isn't a good weapon or its a bad round I'm just saying depending on what you want it to do there might be better choices.

I realize it like the old arguments in the 1960s and 70s when Colt and S&W were the primary manufacturers in the U.S and you could argue which is better forever like asking a ford or chevy fan which is better.

The US Army issued the Colt 1873 peacemaker A.K.A. single action army in caliber 45 long Colt which had a bit of knockdown power I suppose. It was replaced with the 38 Long Colt in the Colt Army and Navy model. This was the US service sidearm from 1892 until 1911.

As has been noted in this thread, legend has it that the conflict in the Philippines was where the 38 Long Colt was judged to be too much of a lightweight in combat situations and the 45 ACP was adopted in 1911. It is bizarre that they replaced it with the 9mm in 1985 but it was thought that since the other NATO allies used the nine it would be better to have a uniform cartridge issued to all of the allies.