Thread: Help me pick my 9mm

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Read the Op's post again. He is talking about self defense handguns, and then states he is unwilling to kill. Hence my response.

It is not that I am unwilling to kill. In defense of myself, family or home I would. I challenge anyone to say "they are prepared to kill". Again I restate given the proper operant conditioning anyone can be "prepared to kill", military, police etc., those that lack the appropriate operant conditioning are not prepared to kill. No matter how hardcore someone thinks they are with a gun a human being will always hesitate IF they are not properly conditioned.

I am not properly conditioned. I know this. I am up front with this. I plan on training myself to become conditioned and that will change my stance. Until that happens, I have to be truthful with myself and others. I know that if the time comes I must pull the trigger. That truth does not make the act easier to deal with.

If no one has read the book "On Killing, The psychological cost of learning to kill in war and society" by Grossman I highly recommend picking it up and reading it.

Oddly killing involves much more than pulling a trigger. It involves a dehumanization of the target. Hence Hogan's Alley where "real" looking characters are used for the police. The book describes a sniper school in Israel where the instructor uses ketchup filled cabbage heads dressed in street gear with appropriate faces. The object of the exercise is for the sniper to become "ok" with seeing a head explode and pieces and blood fly everywhere.

To be able to dehumanize a person that is standing in your living room is hard especially at hand gun range. At shotgun range it is probably easier. Anger and fear are probably the driving factors when operant conditioning is not available.

It is a good decision I think if you are scared for your safety to have a gun on you at all times. If it is in a safe it is nearly useless. My grandparents owned a farm in Africa (I think if you read the news you all know what is happening on farms in Africa) and owned everything from revolvers up to sniper-grade systems for hunting (I say system because gun+optics+peripherals=shooting system), including a few hand guns, a shot gun (or was it two?), and an assault rifle (G3) all of which I feel would be good close range self defense weapons (single shot rifles are essentially useless for up close...). They were all well maintained and kept in a safe. One night, the farm was robbed by a man with a machete. Needless to say my grandmother could not defend herself with a gun locked in a safe.

Just want to point out that when you tense up you become a rigid body and a force exerted on your shoulder becomes a moment (torque) about your center of gravity- so a bad stance will cause you to fall. A supple/loose/relaxed body is "deformable" and thus much of the energy will be dissipated through deformations (ie flesh trauma). It stands to reason that a flexed/tense target would be more easily knocked down, while a loose/relaxed target will rag doll more. Think about being punched in the gut- if you flex your abs you might get knocked back some, if you leave them loose, (it'll hurt more but) the shock will be dissipated over your core and you will double over, but stay in place.

I have been in two situations where I was pointing a loaded gun at another human being and was going to have to make a decision. In the first case the individual didn't know I had a gun on him as a car door concealed my gun hand. He departed without incident and that was that.

In the second case shots were exchanged. I won't get into a long explanation and that is what it would take but I will say that in my case so many things went through my mind so quickly when I was thinking about the possible ramifications of shooting someone. Fortunately for both of us we both missed our targets and no collateral damage but not for lack of trying.

I normally only carry a gun at work. If I thought a robber would come in and ask for the money, take it and leave I wouldn't carry it then. The problem is that many of them will shoot their victims anyway so I carry and I think I would pull and shoot even if the perpetrator already had a gun on me. Let's hope I never have to find out.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

In the second case shots were exchanged. I won't get into a long explanation and that is what it would take but I will say that in my case so many things went through my mind so quickly when I was thinking about the possible ramifications of shooting someone. Fortunately for both of us we both missed our targets and no collateral damage but not for lack of trying.

FWIW ... I'm glad you both missed too.

That's one scenario that I'd rather not experience.

Just read a short article by Courtney on Hydrostatic Shock. It basically agreed with what Glen and I said.

A bullet enters the body and propagates shock waves through the liquid that is human flesh. The waves get bigger as the bullet expands and penetrates deeper. What happens then is that those pressure waves migrate into major arteries and other vessels as well as rattling the nerves that the bullet passes through. Waves tend to go up and out so it would be logical that a pressure wave could reach the brain "concussing" it. Reach the heart causing it to flutter and possibly stop.

In other words. The heavier the bullet, the broader the spread of the bullet combined with depth of the wound the larger the pressure wave. The more chance you have of dropping someone.

Courtney recommends a load with a minimum of 500 ft-lbs of energy and 12" of penetration.

Originally Posted by singlewedge

It is not that I am unwilling to kill. In defense of myself, family or home I would. I challenge anyone to say "they are prepared to kill". Again I restate given the proper operant conditioning anyone can be "prepared to kill", military, police etc., those that lack the appropriate operant conditioning are not prepared to kill. No matter how hardcore someone thinks they are with a gun a human being will always hesitate IF they are not properly conditioned.

I am not properly conditioned. I know this. I am up front with this. I plan on training myself to become conditioned and that will change my stance. Until that happens, I have to be truthful with myself and others. I know that if the time comes I must pull the trigger. That truth does not make the act easier to deal with.

If no one has read the book "On Killing, The psychological cost of learning to kill in war and society" by Grossman I highly recommend picking it up and reading it.

Oddly killing involves much more than pulling a trigger. It involves a dehumanization of the target. Hence Hogan's Alley where "real" looking characters are used for the police. The book describes a sniper school in Israel where the instructor uses ketchup filled cabbage heads dressed in street gear with appropriate faces. The object of the exercise is for the sniper to become "ok" with seeing a head explode and pieces and blood fly everywhere.

To be able to dehumanize a person that is standing in your living room is hard especially at hand gun range. At shotgun range it is probably easier. Anger and fear are probably the driving factors when operant conditioning is not available.

I am prepared to kill. There are lots of really fun courses you can take that will improve your skill with a weapon to the point where you just identify a target then react.

Also


My life philosophy is pretty simple. Those I have allowed into my home are more important than anyone else and anyone who enters my house uninvited means me and mine harm. If the mean harm they have put their life into the balance, if they are willing to take one they must be willing to risk one, and this is a contest I have practiced to win. Anyone who would attack a supposedly defenseless human beingis a lesser being who does deserve to be put down. Their life is simply not as valuable to the world as mine is.